I'll second that! I've seen one under the Kia badge the Optima (Hyundai Sonata) go through 3 TRANSMISSIONS in 30K miles, an instrument panel, and a bunch of electrical problems before they got rid of it. I don't care what J.D. Power thinks or any other outlet, Hyundai and Kia both are junk!

I partically agree with you. The only thing that the Japanese still have on us is in SOME (not all mind you) cases they do have better power, fuel mileage, and interior. That is the only thing we have fallen behind on; however, we are catching up. Hopefully we will either offer a 4.0L in the Chrysler Sebring or a turbo 2.4L in the Stratus or both. Then we will take back the bragging rights to having the fastest mid-sized car again. I'm not including the Grand Prix GXP or Impala SS since those are classified by some as full-sized and they will be switching to RWD before long.

The difference between the domestics manufacturers and foreign manufactures is becoming marginal now in terms of quality. I used to be more concerned about the sales going to the Japanese manufactures but I don't anymore. Look at how many are built here. Take Toyota for an example. The Camry, Avalon, Corrola, Tundra, FJ Crusier, Sequoia, Sienna, Tacoma. The models made in Japan are the 4Runner, Highlander, Land Cruiser, RAV4, Yaris, Prius. That's 8 built in the U.S. to 6 built in Japan.

Now lets look at Chrysler for a minuet. The base engine in the new Sebring is a joint venture design between Hyundai, Mitsubishi, and Chrysler. The platform is a Mitsubishi design, but it was built here. The PT Cruiser is built in Mexico as is the engine. The 300C is built in Canada, the platform is a Mercedes, the transmission is a Mercedes, and I believe the HEMI is built in Mexico as well. The Pacifica is also built in Canada and has some Mercedes tech in the platform. The HEMI in the Aspen I believe is built in Mexico. That's the entire line-up. So are we really helping out the middle-class more by buying a Chrysler? I don't know, but I buy Chrysler products because I prefer them.

The economy is changing to a global economy and I'm not afraid of it, because I see this not as a loss but as an opportunity. What is replacing manufacturing jobs are service jobs. The demand for accountants is going up. The demand for U.S. prescription drugs is high. The need for marketing is there. The demand for U.S. education is growing. The demand for U.S. foods and drinks is also increasing. The demand for Doctors, Nurses, and many other positions in the medical field are growing.

If you look at it correctly without media B.S. clogging your mind with myths, this is a good thing. The jobs the U.S. manufactures are losing are covered by the plants owned by the Japanese and Korean manufactures. The middle-class is improving not losing.

 

maybe the new avenger will kick some butt in speed, but I would agree with you on kia and hyundai krap, again, but I wouldn't say they foreign have beetter power, most of their top engines are like v6s, while our top are smokin v8s, but that's all I'll say about that, and interior, well, the 05 interior i had, (this being the most expensive accord purchasable) had leather that came unstitched in the back seat which I never used, the sun roof squeaked, the road noise was worse than my new truck by far, and the "wood grain" was plastic, and uncomfortble seatin, but that's just that car, don't know bout the rest, don't care to find out. I think the sweetest seats I see are in the srt8 and daytona chargers, look comfy, to me anyways, oh well, DODGE KICKS BUTT

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but what you have just written represents the problem that the U.S. manufactures are having. When you came up with an example of how the domestic manufactures are better, you referred to their large/full-sized cars. They are trying to compete against mid-sized cars using a large/full-sized car and that is a sure path to failure. I know it sounds insane, but once you begin to think about it, it makes perfect sense.

A good portion of the mid-sized car market isn't going to be swayed if the large/full-sized car at the same price offers more options and better protection. They want a mid-sized car not because of the options or the protection, they want it purely because they are the most comfortable with the size. The mid-sized cars offer the best comprise between performance, fuel mileage, safety, comfort, price, and size. Some prefer mid-sized cars because they live in the city and have worry about parking space room. It is easier to parallel park a mid-sized car than a large/full-sized car.

The public prefers mid-sized cars. The proof of this is that the only cars you will see on the top ten best sellers list are mid-sized cars (the Impala is techincally a mid-sized as was the Taurus). Although the domestics put in their best effort in full-sized cars (minus the Crown Vic which is just a cash cow), they aren't their best sellers. That is why some Japanese companies don't even offer a Large/full-sized car in their line-up.

The reason why the domestics have been holding back on their mid-sized offerings is they don't want them to compete against their own large/full-sized offerings. Now that the Large/full-sized cars are going back to RWD, they need to style them differently for different segments and put a full fledged effort in all of them.

I hope your right that the Avenger will kick some serious butt; however, they are going to need a more powerful engine to accomplish this is all. Now in the truck market, Dodge and Ford offer the best interior (I don't know for sure about the new GM trucks since I haven't seen them yet), but in the car market is where we run behind and considering that the Ram, Camry, and Accord keep switching places on the top ten selling list, that is a seriously competitive market.

It sounds like your Accord was started on a Friday and ended on a Monday, because from my experience Accords live up to their reputation in the interior department. Now part of where the Japanese have the edge is the dash interior materials are more soft (I know it seems stupid but obviously some people must be sitting on the dash or something). Although this doesn't bother me, it drives many people insane if the plastics are hard. The image of the Accord on the inside in comparison to many other mid-sized cars is more impressive. The dash and the gauges look very classy.

The Avenger needs a more powerful engine than the 3.5L because that version is only pumping out 235hp & 232 ft-lbs of tq; meanwhile, the Nissan Altima is pumping out 270hp & 255 ft-lbs of tq (but it is actually slower than its predicessor due to that worthless CVT), the Camry's new 3.5L produces 268hp & 248ft-lbs of tq, and the Mazda Speed 6 produces about 274hp & 270 ft-lbs of tq with their turbocharged 2.3L. The direct competitors to these are the Pontiac G6/Saturn Aura, Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan, and Chrysler Sebring/Dodge Avenger (when it is released).

The G6 GTP/Aura XR only produces 252hp & 251ft-lbs of tq out of their 3.6L which gets only 20/28 mpg, the Fusion/Milan still only offer the tired 221hp & 205ft-lbs of tq 3.0L Duratech which gets 21/29, the Sebring/Avenger at this point only offer 235hp & 232 ft-lbs of tq while getting 19/28 mpg. That's the problem. Now I heard the G6 is going to get a GXP model which will produce 270 hp out of the 3.9L V6. The SEMA Sebring offered a 285hp 4.0L V6. Ford needs to get rid of the 3.0L Duratech and build or buy a better engine design.

 

The Challenger was originally a small car E-body and the upcomming one is larger than my mid-sized Roadrunner and that's saying alot. All the V8 powered American cars are all full size models which are normally outperformed by or equaled by the V6 mid-size Japanese cars and I'm getting tired of this. Granted cars back then were larger than the cars today, but not by much if any when looking at just the RWD's as opposed to the FWD's. A lot of people refer to how heavy the older cars were, but the older RWD cars are considerably lighter than the RWD cars of today, the Charger in 1969 was around 3,600-3,800 lbs. with a V8 vs. the 2006 Charger which tips the scales at over 4,000 lbs. with a V8. The Challenger with a V8 in the 70's was around 3,400-3,600 lbs. and the new one is looking at tipping the scales over the 4,000 lbs. mark. This is why smaller, lighter and less powerful cars will outperform many of them while getting better gas mileage.

 

I would like to see the avenger with a crazy engine, cause of it's looks. Maybe an srt6 version, maybe pusing 300ponies. There is one issue about these hp ratings. Many of you might scream about this, but it's the truth. The hp ratings come from the manufactures. I"m sorry to say (BUT FROM EXPERIENCE) foreign rated hp in toyotas and hondas is over rated. And not to mention, looket the rmps that they make their power. It's up around like 5-7thousand before the engine is about to blow, only then does it make that power.

The american engines seem to offer more constant power, and they under rate most of their power for insurance purposes, where as the foreign over rate their power so they can put numbers on the internet and people can see them. When you really see these care on the dyno, trust me, hp that they rate is so far off(yes i take into account this is rwhp) in that case, you could also say that detroit better transfers power to the actual wheels, the power you actually can see. So you may see more hp #s on the internet, those numbers are never accurate. Detroit has ALWAYS over rated most of its cars hp to avoid insurance ouchy.

I know some may not agree with this, but has anybody really dynoed these and compared detroit vs imports on actual hp? I have.....to an extent. whether they over rate the hp or whether the hp never gets to the wheels right, something is off

as to 71 road runner, i think their so heavy cause of all the stupid gadgets and extra suspension junk and emissions junk and all of that. In the 60s, they were a piece of metal mounted on a piece of metal, bare bones, and fat engine-but with very few things on those engines. of course u gotta member the new charger is 4 door, and is that wieght for the challenger fact or theory? just wondering, u would think it would be lighter than the charger. is that 4,000 for the srt8?

 

Even though the newer cars have more trinkets, the have the advantages of plastic panels and aluminum heads and/or blocks to keep down weight. The current R/T Charger has a curb weight of 4,031 lbs. The Challenger is only 3" shorter in the frame than the Charger and carries almost exactly the same weight. The Charger SRT-8 has a curb weight of 4,160 lbs.

 

Although what you have said is true about Toyota and Honda overrating their cars, this new Toyota engine has already been adjusted in its hp & tq numbers, it was originally 280hp & about 260-265ft-lbs of tq now its 268hp & 248ft-lbs of tq. I believe these numbers are pretty close to accurate because the 0-60 time is around 6.0-6.2 secs for the new Camry (depending on the source). A 300 hp Avenger sounds sweet. I hope they will consider doing that.

The new Sebring (sister car to the Avenger) with the 3.5L with 235hp & 232 ft-lbs of tq does 0-60 in 6.8 secs according to MT. The new Saturn Aura does 0-60 in 6.3 secs according to MT. The old Altima 3.5L with 5-speed auto did it in 6.2 secs and that version only had about 250hp & 249 ft-lbs of tq which is 20hp & 9ft-lbs of tq less than the current one has but it was faster because it didn't have that worthless CVT. The Fusion takes around 7.3-7.7 secs to get to 0-60. I think the Mazda Speed 6 does it somewhere between 5.4-5.9?secs (my memory is pretty vague on this one).

RoadRunner, that is also very true. The acceleration times between the 300C and the Toyota Avalon are very marginal (the Avalon has the same output and transmission as the Camry). That engine has a lot of high tech stuff to it. It has Dual-VVT, Direct-Injection, its a 4 valve per cylinder DOHC engine. Dodge needs to add the Dual-VVT and a Direct-Injection system to the 3.5L or 4.0L.

 

some longgggg post there. the new avenger is showing a turbo opition. that will be cool. i like the looks of the new concept avenger!

 

Yes that is my specialty. I'm long winded and excited because I'm going to have time off[sm=groupwave.gif][sm=wootwoot.gif][sm=coolness.gif][sm=happy046.gif]

Let's hope that listing on Dodge's site remains true.

 

yeah I'm not sure why Dodge is so heavy these days, is it qualit? is it all the new ride stuff these days? yeah there's more plastic inside, but there's more "stuff" everywhere it seems. the old days there was a metal dash, that had like nothing on it, maybe a radio, maybe AC, and heat.

Now we got all these navigation systems, and sound systems and I relaly don't know why dodge is so heavy. IT's a good thing when it comes to crash safety. I think the Dodge trucks might be heavier as well than the other trucks. I would call that better quality, hoping the lighter stuff just means more plastic, but I can't say for sure.

I do with they could slim the challenger to around 3500, but can't see that happening. Still, the numbers on the internet say it's 0-60 is around 4.5 the shelby gt500 is 4.5, so if those numbers can be turned into fact instead of projected, I won't care what the car weighs, if it can top a 500hp lighter smaller mustang, even though I love stangs and camaros too. I love the muscle wars comin back. I just hope people won't fous on gas when they see these cars. Yeah their not 35mpg but their still a lot better than the original muscle cars, A LOT BETTER.

Well yeah I got time off also intrepid, 4 weeks off, starting this friday after finals, yuck
My bowl game is Fiesta Bowl, my college is BSU, how sweet is it that my college and home town is goin to play Oklahoma? Anybody for the Broncos? GO BRONCOS