Ive never seen a 3250 lb SRT4. My buddies loaded 04 was 2975, IM 3200. The stickier tires on the SRT4 make it more launch friendly, not the older compound 1991 tires. Glad you bring up the Iroc R/T of which about 400 were made. Same motor yet it tops out at 156 mph, aerodynamics are everything, and the SRT4 is much slicker then the R/T.

What Im saying is put the same tires on a R/T as the SRT, let it run 14 psi, and add the 200-300 lbs difference, a quaife and the SRT4 is the looser. I appreciate your article with the blue SRT4 0-60 in 5.3 the R/T 6.5....advantage SRT4 by 1.2 seconds......1/4 mile its knocked down to under .5 seconds....I can tell you this, if the Spirit had the traction capabilities of a SRT4, it would flat walk the SRT4.

If you compare absolutely stock to stock the SRT4 edges the R/T out, level the playing field as mentioned above and its all over for the SRT4.

 

OK, it's time to clear up the confusion and misunderstandings. First up is the tires. The SRT-4 has a stickier compound tire, the R/T has a taller tire, they offset each other. The SRT-4's stickier tires are a low profile tire which is far stiffer and less flexible which makes for poor traction on a drag launch. The R/T's taller tire is more flexible with it's softer sidewalls which helps to grab traction during a drag launch. This is why all drag slicks have a tall sidewall, it helps to grab and go instead of being stiff and breaking loose on the launch. When is the last time you have seen a low profile drag slick?.....never, that's because the short stiff sidewall of a low profile tire is bad for a drag launch. So, the SRT-4 has stickier compound tires +1 for the SRT-4, the R/T has a taller tire +1 for the R/T=DRAW. If you could switch wheel/tire combos between the two you would still be running the same since you would gain the positive aspect of the other while also getting that combos negative aspect at the same time. The times would stay the same.

Secondly we have the weight issue. I have no idea where you get that the R/T's weigh 3,200 lbs., everything I've seen says different. The SRT-4's weigh no less than 2,869 lbs., the article testing the blue SRT-4 weighs 2,984 lbs. and it doesn't have the added weight of the Kicker option that adds the weight of a CD changer, sub and amp or the side impact air bags that adds even more weight. These added options will make the SRT-4 well over 3,000 lbs. (most likely well over 3,100 lbs.). The R/T's weigh 2,801 lbs. at the very least with a fully optioned one running a little over 3,050 lbs. So it appears that the R/T is the lighter car and if you want to equalize their weight then it's the SRT-4 that gets to drop a few pounds, in the 68 lbs. or more range and not the R/T dropping 200-300 lbs.

Now we come to the boost issue. The R/T doesn't have a boost gauge. I've read that the R/T's have been known to put out as high as 13-15 psi boost. The SRT-4 puts out 11-14 psi boost (it depends on the weather as to how much boost it puts out). You say that the SRT-4 has a 3 psi advantage, so bump the R/T's boost up 3 psi. That 3 psi is not gonna cut it for beating the SRT-4. Run against an '03 or add the quaife and run against an '04/'05. FYI: The SRT-4 is limited to only 8 psi boost in first gear, so we will have to limit the R/T's boost to 8 psi in first gear. I have seen quicker 0-60 MPH times for the R/T than what you have given, but the 1/4 mile times are on average far slower than your claim. I have seen their 0-60 MPH times from the high 5's to the high 6's and the 1/4 mile from mid-high 14's to high 15's with very few low 16's (probably poor drivers or worn parts). The SRT-4 times average 0-60 MPH times of low5'2 to high 5's and the 1/4 mile from mid-high 13's to mid 14's.

So, as you see, it is a fair and even playing field stock vs. stock and the SRT-4 is a full second + quicker. And even if you were to give the R/T 3 psi more boost, it cannot make up that much time.


BTW: Apex Technology has dynoed the SRT-4 and found 248 horsepower at the wheels!

 

Next time my buddie is here we will weigh both cars at the same scale, the SRT is 200-300 lighter. I own 2 Spirit R/Ts and have weighed them both at a local scale and the lessr optioned one at Ennis raceway at a NHRA event it was 3395 with me. The height of the sidewall doesnt offset the tires ability for traction in this case, not to mention the lack of a LSD. The R/T came with a all season type of tire not one geard more twards performance lithe the SRT tires.

No R/Ts ran 15 psi, the injectors are over 100% DC. Factory preset is 11 psi of boost.

Dynos are all different, I can find the dyno w/ the same car dynoing 20 h.p. different.

Fact is the R/T cuts the 1.2 second advantage to .4 with 40 less h.p. less traction and worse aerodynamics.

 

I gave the info that is published facts. The SRT-4 weighs almost exactly the same as the R/T with the R/T being slightly lighter on average. You say that yours weighs 3,395 lbs. with you in it, the manufacturer and many other sources list it being 2,801 lbs. to 3,050 lbs. curb weight. The SRT-4 is listed at 2,970 lbs. base curb weight which doesn't include the weight adding Kicker stereo and side impact air bags which will easily bump it up to over 3,100 lbs.+. These are facts published by the manufacturer. The only possible difference in weight could be from the gas tanks capacity and how full it is when weighed.

Sorry, but the tires size does make a difference especially during a drag strip launch and the compound of the SRT-4's tires are only slightly better than that of the R/T's. Your R/T's all season tires are Michelin Pilot XGT V4 Ultra High Performance tires, so don't try and play them off as regular all season tires because they are far from it. Why do you continue to bring up something that has no meaning to this conversation, the '03's don't have a LSD and they are lower in horsepower and still run quicker than the R/T's. Besides, the SRT-4's have to deal with far more torque than the R/T's which make them far harder to launch. You can bring up horsepower all you want, but it's the torque that is the biggest factory during the launch and the SRT-4 is at peak torque from 2,200 RPM to 4,400 RPM which causes it to break the tires loose at any given time through third gear. The R/T also has the benifit of a normal and stronger clutch while the SRT-4 has a weak modular clutch.

According to the ones with boost gauges, the R/T's have been known to allow up to 13-15 psi boost. My Shelby Z's Mopar Performance PCM was preset for only 13 psi, but if the weather was right it would put out 15+psi boost. The SRT-4 is supose to be electronically limited to only 148 MPH top speed, but no one has been held to under 153 MPH with most hitting the speedometers limit.

I'm well aware that different dynos will yield different results, it's based on how they measure the power.

The facts show that the R/T's gain nothing anywhere in the 1/4 mile, the quickest times I've seen for any R/T was 0-60 MPH in 5.8 sec. and the 1/4 mile in 14.5 @ 97 MPH, all the others were in the 15's. The quickest for an '03 SRT-4 that I've seen is the 1/4 mile in 13.7, but the best magazine time I've seen is 0-60 MPH in 5.4 sec. and the 1/4 mile in 14.0 @ 102 MPH. Where do you get your figures from, because I have never seen anything to support your 1.2 to .4 claim. Your arguing a 40 horsepower difference, yet you wanted to go by the factory rating which puts it at the R/T having a 9 HP advantage over the '03 SRT-4 and only being behind the '04 SRT-4 by 6 HP. If any car suffers less traction it's the SRT-4 with it's low profile tires and well over 50 torque more than the R/T. How many times do I have to repeat myself, the aerodynamics have no effect on the 0-60 MPH or 1/4 mile performance at the speeds they cross the finish line, aerodynamics don't come into until you reach 110-120 MPH.[sm=exactly.gif]

 

I dont want to toot my own horn when it comes to the R/Ts, but owning the fastest R/T in the country, I know a whole lot more than the average car guy. I own 2 of these a 91 and a 92, the 92 weighing a bit more than my 91, My friend weighed his 04 SRT4 2975 w/o driver. I was just over 3200 with a shade under 1/4 tank. The only polace they may get the 2800 from is a base AA body like a acclaim with the lighter suspension, etc.

Back to the tires again, Id take a 2004 tire compund to a 1991 tire compound any day. Even though the XGT V4s were good for the day, they are dinosaurs by todays standards. Otherwise we'd all be running around on bias ply tires.

The 03 SRT was still quicker in the 0-60 which blows your arguement out of the water, I can tell you a stock R/T will fry the tire in 1st and 2nd totally and through part of 3rd on the street. So if you have so much power and you cant stick it to the ground why is the SRT4 so quick to 60? Id like to see the 0-60 in 5.8 on a R/T, go the article or website handy?

On your statement of the R/Ts that had boost gauges, um none of the Spirits did. And they were preset to 11psi.

You dont understand aerodynamics at all. If they dont mean anything until 120+mph, then why would a car with a 2.5 liter engine run faster than a minivan with the same h.p. engine and both weigh the same? How come a minivan runs 12.6 at 105 mph? When a car running 12.6 is 110+mph. Why do auto mufacturers work so hard to cut a cars drag for only going 70-75 mph....ANSWER, because drag eats up h.p. and consumes more fuel.

As you love to point out SRTs are underrated, they are doing 230 on average, where the RTs were doing 180-190. Still cant figure out why they chew up such a lead. I did run a 13.98 in my R/T when it was 100% stock, much much quicker now.

This is a circular arguement that will never end, so let me finish by saying this. Next year in the NOPI drag racing series the SMP 97 TIII powered Charger will beat the SRT4 Mopars best ET. If not I'll buy you a steak dinner. DEAL?

 

The 2,801 lbs. weight was on the Spirit R/T, not the base model Acclaim, but it was the lowest optioned R/T.

If the tires were sooo bad, then why are they still being made, they would have stopped making them if they had something better to replace them.

I never said that the SRT-4 couldn't be launched without wheel spin, I just said that it's damn hard to and still run a top time. It doesn't blow my arguement at all, in fact it supports it because they do have a very hard time launching and still can manage that time. You want to know where I got the R/T's 0-60 MPH time of 5.8 sec., it was Car & Driver. And here are two different sources with the same time listed:


[IMG]local://upfiles/193/6A03D229833A47E589E841A451F4A940.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]local://upfiles/193/C412B3E8B4C74E39BED88F71C4665214.jpg[/IMG]

Once again you misunderstand. I was the one that brought up the fact that the R/T's didn't come with boost gauges, remember, have you ever heard of the aftermarket. I'm refering to those that have installed a boost gauge.

I think you need to read up on aerodynamics, I spent several years in school studying aerodynamics and aerospace. The reasons for the difference is in the vehicles overall design. Every aspect of a vehicles design comes into play when comparing them to others, weight, wheelbase, width, ride height, overall height, weight distribution, etc. All of these factors have an impact on a vehicles performance. Most cars with spoilers that top out between 100-120 MPH only have them for looks because the serve no purpose (they are functionless), but cars with higher top speeds have functional spoilers that make a difference in their handling/road holding. The same is true for the cars in question, every single design difference makes a difference in their performance wether it's 0-60 MPH, 1/4 mile, top end, skidpad, etc. A vehicles aerodynamics can make some impact on fuel economy because it is based on long duration at speed. The difference between your hypothetical van vs. car with equal power and weight is in their non-aero designs. Now if we were talking about racing for a half mile then the aerodynamics will make a difference because they would be at high enough speeds to make a difference, the speed at which aerodynamics will start to make a difference is 110 MPH. Anything below that will only make about .0005 sec. difference in 1/4 mile.

I would love to see even a shred of proof on a 13.98 sec. 1/4 mile run from a 100% untouched factory stock Spirit R/T, this means with nothing removed and the tires and tire pressure set to factory spec, exactly as it came from the factory. I have seen SRT-4's shed a couple tenths by lowering tire pressure and I've seen them drop a full second by simply bolting on some slicks. I don't believe that with most stock R/T's running all over the 15's and a few managing mid to high 14's that you got yours into the high 13's.[sm=bs.gif]

I'll be looking forward to that steak.

 

Id get your money back from the aerodynamics school then, or mabey they will let you retake the course. Look at the litle things mfgs do, like the air defusers on the top rear of station wagons, and some SUVs. The aerodynamics law states that when the speed doubles your drag coefficient quadrouples, and thats the Physics. SRT4 .32 and the R/T .40 drag coefficients are vast.

I had a stripped R/T, no power locks, seat, or windows, no overhead console. Its not 2801 its a shade over 3200 with about 1/4 tank. I'll weigh both in the near future on the same scale and report the difference.

I love how you selectively take data and disregard other data, case in point your 60mph claim, then there a several articles clocking R/Ts from 14.2-14.5 and thats B.S. If I went off what Ive seen, I saw my buddies 04 run low 14s with minor mods and another local guy with a silver SRT4-04 run 13.7 with stage 2 and drag radials...

How would a SRT4 drop a couple thenths by making a shorter sidewall by deflating the tire? Iknow its puts more rubber to the ground, and allows the tire to absorb a very minor about of load, but it sure shoots your argument in the butt.

I dont blame you for flaming my 13.98 pass, afterall, it does torpedoes your arguement, I fully understand. Guess I havent run a 11.68 either. BTW I like my steak medium well......and a tad of A1..

 

i tried not to get pulled into this stupid *** arguement, but i cant help it.

i dont think that your 11s RT is impossible, but its unlikely. if your car runs those numbers, that really is awesome. where do you like mopar2ya? could i be looking forward to seeing you run at the nationals this year? im sure lots of people dont believe that i have a mid 12s 83 mirada. but such is life.

however, with the SRT4...i dont own one, and i couldnt care less who says what about them. however...there is a guy at my local track that has gotten into the 13.8s with ONLY a ghetto ramair (pulled the headlight) and running 10psi on his Gforce's, with a stage 0. he has found that dropping the pressure so low allows him to launch the car about 1000rpm higher without dramatic wheel spin. ive seen a gutted out stage 1 run 12.7s he had the entire interior pulled, had the exhaust removed directly past the turbo, and slicks,m with stage 1 mopar mods. ive also seen Plenty of SRT4s with stage 1 run mid 14s, and thats because they dont know how to launch or shift. there are probably 8 or so regulars at my home track with the neons, and there is only 1 stage 2 car, he runs 13.20s. most of them run 13.9/14.0ish, except for the previously mentioned who has gotten (not regularly) into the 13.8s.

in my experiences, alot of the people who own SRT4s are high school age kids who coudlnt decide between the new civic Si, and the neon, but the BOV sounds neat so they had mommy and daddy buy that, then they go to the track and run 14.5s/15.0s.

 

I took my highly modified Craftsman, Kohler powered lawn mower to the strip last sunday. It ran an 10.90 on lawn tires, but I just about pulled the steering wheel off trying to hold on. The electric turbo, slick 50, and resistor mod dropped the times from 8 minutes to 10.90's. The track told me not to bring it back until I put a cage on it.

Next mod in a NOS plate system. 8's are just around the corner.

[sm=happybounce.gif][sm=bs.gif]

 

well, my moms brothers nephews cousins sister told me that your tractor onoly ran 12s..not 10s...liar! LIAR!


hmmm..NOS on a lawnmower you say..it just so happens that i have a bottle at my disposal...