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4.7L cold start noise / lifter noise / slapping

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Old 11-28-2006, 01:02 PM
h2o_man1 h2o_man1 is offline
 
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Default 4.7L cold start noise / lifter noise / slapping

I have a '03 Ram 1500 with a 4.7L, VIN N and it has been at the dealership for almost 4 months now. I purchased the truck used with 63,000 miles on it. The truck runs great but has a cold engine start up noise that was not there when I first got it. A few days later it started the lifter type noise. The noise is coming from the right side of the engine. Very prominent from the passenger fender well. If you walk around the truck it actually sounds like it is coming from under it, even with the hood open. If laying under the truck it sounds as if it is coming from just below the right head. Used a stethoscope and listened to it and everything is quiet except from the right head. Sounds like a loose rocker arm or a bad lifter. No where else in the engine do you hear anything with the scope. When laying under the truck listening and after the sound starts to soften it sounds like something is slapping around in the lower end instead of up by the right head, then the noise fades away. The sound use to only last for about 30-45 seconds and ocassionally up to 2 minutes. The sound is loud then softens and then goes away. Was worse in the mornings and slight noise if truck sat for 3-4 hours.

The truck had a fresh oil change with conventional oil when I first bought it. Thought it might have been cheap oil in it so I changed it and put in Mobil 1 synthetic 5w30 and the noise got worse. I had the lifters on the passenger side changed by an independent mechanic. The noise never went away and didn't change. Found out it was still under the Powertrain Warranty so I took it to the dealership that this independent mechanic had called for help. They replaced just the timing chain tensioners and the noise went away for a few days (charged me under the powertrain warranty for timing chain, guides and tensioners but did not replace the chains...this is another story in itself). When the noise came back I had the oil changed again with a different brand filter. It has now had 5 different brand filters on it all with anti-drainback valve including Mopars oil and filter. NO change.

After the dealership accepted blame for not putting the parts on they have been diligent up 'till now with trying to fix it. They then replaced the chains and guides plus changing the lifters in both heads (right head has had two sets of lifters/lash adjusters at this point). The noise changed to only in the morning but stayed the same lasting for about 30-45 seconds. It was loud for the first 20 seconds then softening and then finally going away.

They then replaced the injectors on the right side and cleaned the fuel rail but that didn't help either.

So the independent mechanic gave me a TSB from IdentiFix that showed a 2001 Dodge with a 4.7L VIN N making a lifter type noise that turned out to be a bad rod bearing. The excessive bearing clearance was allowing the piston to tap the bottom of the head. However the TSB did not state if it was only during cold engine start up. Having shown this to the dealership they decided to replace 4 pistons and rod bearings on the right side on the engine, re-used the rods and pins. At the same time they installed a new cam, new rocker arms and new head on the right side...re-using the old valves and springs. The noise never went away but the consistancy of it had changed the length of time shortened. Sometimes it would be quiet when I started it then 15 seconds later the noise would start and last 20-40 seconds.

So the dealership tried running 10w30 in it instead of 5w30. The 10w30 made the noise about four times as loud and make the noise every time I started it reguardless of how long it sat but the longer it sat the worse the noise was and the length of time would increase. I drove it for about 4 hours to go see my brother and got in it 4 hours later and it tapped for almost 3 minutes.

Dealership then changed the oil pump. No change in the symptoms from when they put the thicker oil in. Also the longer the distance that I drive the truck and then let it sit, the louder and longer it is. Now it even makes noise after only sitting for 30 minutes. But if I start it cold and don't let it warm up, just run it till the noise fades away then turn it off, the next time I start it it is *******ly quiet.

Now the problem is worse and I can tell the Service Manager is getting "burnt-out" on it. I can't take it to another Service Department because now it has 70,600 miles on it (out of warranty). The dealership I have working on it is keeping an open ticket on it until the problem is fixed. I have alread paid the deductable and the problem is not fixed. Paid that when they first worked on it. I contacted the Daimler/Chrysler customer service department and filed a complaint about the engine noise and all they tell me is to continue working with the Service Department until it is resolved.

I did take it to another dealership and they charged me to tell me that I have a "sludged-up" engine and carbon on my valves and pistons....This is not true because I have seen the inside of the engine, the independent mechanic, the dealership I am working with and a mechanic friend who works for GM have all told be that the other Dodge Service Department mis-diagnosed the problem....they tried to charge me $250.00 to "flush the engine" and if that didn't fix it then they wanted to charge me $110.00 an hour to find the problem because it would not be covered under the Powertrain Warranty because the engine was "sludged-up" from poor maintanance. I told them they were wrong and at this point the Service Rep said "You owe us $48.00 and you can take your truck back to ******* Service Department and let them figure out what the problem is" Found out later all they did was removed my oil fill cap and looked at it but claimed they used a vidio device to look inside the engine including the combustion chamber....hard to do that if you don't remove a spark plug.....still had road dust on all eight of the coils and if this was done at least one would of had some sort of smudge marks on it. I left and took it to my mechanic friend and we took the valve cover off on the right side and saw that it still had the old chain and guide on it. When we looked down inside further, we saw a nice shiny new secondary tensioner pushing against and old tensioner arm. Put the valve cover back on and took it back up the the dealership and chewed butt and almost got escorted off by the police. The Service Manager didn't beleive me that his Tech didn't put the parts on. I had taken pictures and he didn't even want see them. I told him I wasn't leaving till they made it right and I stood my ground and many parts later I am here.
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  #2  
Old 12-04-2006, 06:55 AM
JRH_PowerWagon_06 JRH_PowerWagon_06 is offline
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Default RE: 4.7L cold start noise / lifter noise / slapping

Try Mobil 1 15W50.
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Old 12-04-2006, 06:42 PM
stump_breaker stump_breaker is offline
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Default RE: 4.7L cold start noise / lifter noise / slapping

Could be the lash adjuster. I'm really leaning toward a hydraulic lifter(s) not pumping up. I had this exact same problem on a Subaru excet the loud clicking would no go away completely. The problem was a simple fix. The oil pump gasket had flattened and was allowing air into the pump. This would not allow the correct pressure on the lifters and would not let them pump up. A $6 oil pump gasket fixed the problem but it took forever to find the problem.
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  #4  
Old 12-04-2006, 09:01 PM
jjrush52 jjrush52 is offline
 
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Default RE: 4.7L cold start noise / lifter noise / slapping

I've got the same exact problem. In fact I've been told by several people that it is a lifter. Mine has pretty much the same symptoms. It goes away after about 30 seconds but every time I start it.

Is the oil pump and/or gasket hard to get to. This would be great if I could fix this. I've been told not to worry about it but it bothers me.

Jake
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  #5  
Old 12-05-2006, 07:03 AM
JRH_PowerWagon_06 JRH_PowerWagon_06 is offline
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Default RE: 4.7L cold start noise / lifter noise / slapping

This sort of Hyd. lifter noise is common. Piston slap is less common. Running very light weight oils like the factory recommends magnifies this perceived "problem."
I'm running Mobil 1 0W-40 in my PW. Sure it's noisy after cold start up for a few minutes, then quiets down.
Hot, the 0W-40 is almost a 50wt. after a few thousand miles the molecules are said the shear down to about a 30wt., but I change at 3-4k miles anyway.
I run 15W-50 in my Cobra to Keep it quiet. It's a hand-built hi-po motor. I'm more interested in protecting the engine, than the factories recommendations in order to achieve their Corporate Average Fuel Economy ratings.

FYI- Mobil 1 0W-40 = Dodge factory oil for Viper.
Mobil 1 15W-50 = Ford factory oil for 2000 Cobra R (Production racer, only 200 made)
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Old 12-05-2006, 12:32 PM
damquick1 damquick1 is offline
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Default RE: 4.7L cold start noise / lifter noise / slapping

Man I bet that Cobra R will peel yer eyelids back a bit...my brother had a true Cobra R back in 1992 (when they told everyone there would never be another "true" Cobra) with the 5.0 and that SOB was fast,... even though it was heavy it still would jerk a knot in ya!
Love to see a pic of it.
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Old 02-09-2010, 02:06 PM
ARG ARG is offline
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I have the same problem on my new 2010 RAM 1500 with a 4.7 engine. Now has about 1500 miles and been like this from day one. Sounds like a diesel when starting cold but the clatter goes away after a minute or two. If this is normal, I don't want to have a dealer mess with it and screw other things up.
Any ideas?
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Old 02-10-2010, 01:48 AM
Kamel87 Kamel87 is offline
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its the guide bars for the timing chain. i have the exact same problem. the only reason they dont want to change them is because its about 5 hrs of work 500 dollars in parts and about 200 dollars in fluids. once the bars and tensioners are replaced the noise will go away
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:23 AM
ahook168 ahook168 is offline
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My truck does this same thing. I was told that since most of the parts in the engine are aluminum that it takes a while for the heat to build up and expand. Made sense to me. I just keep using good oil and let it warm up before I drive.
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:26 AM
big guy big guy is offline
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Copied from different thread..
After making two trips to the dealer for cold engine knock. First trip replaced right bank valve lash adjustors. Second trip dealer replaced left bank valve lash adjustors and rockers. Both times dealer told me they corrected the problem. But both times the next morning the noise was still present. (P.S. Donít let the dealer start the truck for you and drive to front reception area.)
So I had my trusted gear shop guy give the truck a listen. He said #6 and # 8 piston are making the cold engine knock. So with my PTO warranty expiring on Oct 29,2009. I went back to a different dealer (selling dealer). Armed with the independent shops report. The second dealer comes up with the timing chain tensioner as the culprit. They replace the tensioners and chain. Install a new water pump and serpentine belt tensioner and serpentine belt. All covered under PTO warranty. Thank you very much Dodge! Get the truck home. Next morning go to do a cold start. Guess what? Same cold start knock is present. Bring truck back to dealer. Leave it there for 10 days while on Vacation. Now they say #8 cylinder/piston is making the noise.
After consultation with Dodge they say it is fairly common on the 4.7 and if it is not excessive that they will not proceed with any more repairs. Service manager states it will not cause an engine failure. Which I have been told by a number of other trusted sources. So for now I guess I am SOL. Itís really hard to believe that a company in such desperate financial position can throw so much warranty dollars at my problem and use hit and miss diagnosis. It is not uncommon to have multiple trips to get intermittent electrical problems corrected. But Mechanical noises should not be that difficult for the professional. So after 4 trips to the dealer each time sitting for about 1 week. They finally find the problem and refuse repairs, and they wonder why they are losing market share! Anyways I will live with it as is, but the cold start knock will make it more difficult to sell. If I decide to do so. I really want to get a used 06 or 07 Hemi. But the market for used trucks in my area is too much for me to make the trade.
*****Update. To date I still have the same noise. Engine still runs strong. *****
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Old 02-10-2010, 04:37 PM
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meen green machine meen green machine is offline
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i have a 2002 4.7 and seem to have the same syptons like a light nocking noise and seems to only be when i start it up in the morning or after not driving it a while.
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Old 02-28-2010, 11:50 PM
2001Wjk 2001Wjk is offline
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Default 4.7L cold start noise / lifter noise / slapping

I have a 2001 4.7l with 130k miles does the exact same thing starts up and sounds like s*** ill sit there right next to it and literally 30 seconds later it just fades of to nothing..Truck has been mitikulsly maintained with 5/30 casrtol synetic blend and always used chrysler oil filters since 70k ...this is my 3rd 4.7 they have all done it the one had 46k miles..i know alot of really good mechanics that know there s*** and app. this is just the oil draining down into the pan and while u start it its working the oil back. Also i have noticed in warmer weather somtimes it wont even do it or if it does it goes literally right away. Im hoping it doesent blow up but this forum deff made me feel better....and if it does blow up i will be sure to let eveyone know
Thnx guys keep posting
2001wjk 3.5 OME 18" 2010 JK Sahara Limited Wheels with 32" A/T's and it does have an intake and i do beat on the truck sometime's...if this was a problem it woulve blown up a long time ago...knock on wood

Last edited by 2001Wjk; 02-28-2010 at 11:56 PM..
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Old 03-01-2010, 11:33 AM
ARG ARG is offline
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Thanks for the info. I have about 2500 miles on mine now. Mine is quiet for about 30 seconds after starting then starts to rattle or clunk like a diesel for 3 to 5 minutes then gradually gets quieter. Even when warm you hear a little. Sounds like more from under the truck, not the from the valve cover area.

ARG
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Old 03-03-2010, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big guy View Post
They finally find the problem and refuse repairs, and they wonder why they are losing market share!
Hey Big Guy, would you mind sharing what it was that they found??????? You can't leave us hanging like that.
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Old 03-03-2010, 07:04 PM
big guy big guy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzinaz View Post
Hey Big Guy, would you mind sharing what it was that they found??????? You can't leave us hanging like that.
I did not know I left anybody hanging? I clearly stated in my post the diagnosis on my truck. #6 and #8 pistons are the cause. Although now towards the later end of the 1 minute knock/tick. I'd swear the lifters were making noise as well? Timed the tick/knock yesterday morning and it was approx 1 minute. No worse than last Oct. Truck still runs strong as ever! Using Redline 5W 30 now.
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Old 03-03-2010, 07:24 PM
rcman0056 rcman0056 is offline
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I have a tick when she is cold and goes away after she warms a little. It is an exhaust manifold leak. Goes away after the exhaust heats up. Dodge trucks are known for the exhaust leak tick.
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Old 03-03-2010, 08:02 PM
big guy big guy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcman0056 View Post
I have a tick when she is cold and goes away after she warms a little. It is an exhaust manifold leak. Goes away after the exhaust heats up. Dodge trucks are known for the exhaust leak tick.
Lash adjustors/ rockers, timing chain tensioners, exhaust manifold gaskets, pistons, Then somebody posts it's valve springs? Then somebody else comes on and says oil pick up and oil filter? Yet another will say new lash adjustors are defective? So I give up on trying to get diagnosis on engine noises on the internet. You need a competete mechanic with a stethoscope to evaluate you personal problem. And there seems to be a major shortage of them!
In my case as well as many others. The noise does not start till maybe 20 seconds to 30 seconds after starting. To me and again just my opinion. If it were manifold gaskets leaking it would start making noise close to start up and not 30 seconds later? And for the lash adjustors I know for a fact I have 80 to 90 psi oil pressure within 2 seconds of start up. So if lash adjusters were leaking down and causing the problem. Why does it 30 seconds before the noise starts. If the lash adjustors were leaking down. I would think it would start right at startup? Not 30 seconds later. Just trying to rationize the situation using engine theories I learned in school.
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Old 03-04-2010, 09:06 AM
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In the old days it might be a heat riser. Do these new trucks still have a heat riser? That could be why no noise until after 30 seconds. That is about when the heat riser would start to open then rattle until it makes it's way to full open. Then it gets quiet. This to me is the only thing that makes sense, that is if the new trucks still have one. Also the noise seems to becoming from under the truck, not the valve cover area.

ARG
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Old 03-04-2010, 12:25 PM
KingsMan KingsMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARG View Post
In the old days it might be a heat riser. Do these new trucks still have a heat riser? That could be why no noise until after 30 seconds. That is about when the heat riser would start to open then rattle until it makes it's way to full open. Then it gets quiet. This to me is the only thing that makes sense, that is if the new trucks still have one. Also the noise seems to becoming from under the truck, not the valve cover area.

ARG
The posts in this thread seem to be wandering through a gamut of different noises. Most posters, though, seem to be describing sounds that are similar to a collapsed lifter for the first 30 seconds or so on a cold start.

I had that happen last fall. Sounded like a lifter was having to pump up. I couldn't locate the source of the sound, seemed to be coming from everywhere under the hood, even from under the truck. A stethoscope was no help. In the end it turned out to be a carboned up valve stem on cylinder #1 that caused the valve to stick. It eventually threw a cam follower causing misfire on that cylinder. I Seafoamed the motor and reinstalled the follower and I haven't heard the noise since.

I know what you are talking about when you mention heat risers. The old Fords were real bad about that. But these motors don't have any thing like that on 'em.

These 4.7's don't have lifters nor do they have hydraulic lash adjusters. The adjusters are solidly mounted on the head, so they aren't the cause of any sounds. They simply hold up one end of the cam followers. The other end is on top of the valve stem with the cam lobe in the center to actuate the valve when the lobe comes around.

4.7's are also known to Chrysler techs to be bad about carbon build up as well as condensation in the oil system.

One of the previous posts mentioned that sometimes you have to take your truck to a mechanic to locate the cause of various sounds. Well said. There are so many causes of different sounds that unless it can be heard it's hard to make solid suggestions as far as what to look for.

Just my 2 cents!
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Old 03-05-2010, 09:27 AM
ARG ARG is offline
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No lash adjusters??? Everything I have read shows the 4.7 does have hydraulic lash adjusters. They were re-designed in 2008 as a normally open check valve lash adjuster so that they would not pump up and keep a valve slightly open for a smoother idle, at least that is what I read. My truck only has 2000 miles and the noise was there from day one so I don't think carbon buildup. Again it is perfectly quiet for 30 to 40 seconds then starts to rattle for a few minutes then when temp comes up gets perfectly quiet.
Again, thanks for the input. I just don't want a dealer tearing into a new motor at this point when all is quiet once it warms up.

ARG
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Old 03-05-2010, 09:27 AM
 
 
 
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2001, 2004, 47, 47l, cold, dodge, ford, hydraulic, jep, lifter, lifters, noise, replace, start, subaru

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