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Oil Questions?

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  #1  
Old 10-04-2008, 12:53 AM
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Question Oil Questions?

Weight is not just thickness. The weight refers to additives. The manufactures build the internal components of the motor with oil companies helping them along the way. This partnership creates lubricants that don't break down to the internal mineral makeup of the working parts of these motors. Basically, if you install different weight of oil into a motor that was not built for it could have adverse effects. The composition of the steel used in the internal parts of the motor can taint the lubricant properties and deposit sludge of ware the motor out.

One should use the lubricant that the factory recommends. Look into your owners manual at the abundant temp chart and figure out which one you should use according to specifications. Some recommendations may be different here so in these case's please follow your manufactures directions.

If one is to use a different oil weight they should make sure that all specifications are included for the operation of the motor of which it needs.

May I recommend Mobil 1. I know for a fact that their Full Synthetic is true. The government put standards on the oil companies and in these to claim a full synthetic it either must go through a timed manufacturing process or be broken down into 2 molecules. I know that Mobil 1 is fully broken down like it is suppose to be. Many cheap companies will just mill it to the time and call it. This is why there are cheaper products out there.

Do not use blends because they are not any better their just cheaper. If you do Fully Synthetic which is the best choice then use that. But is regular is used just use that. Mixing does nothing better because the oil properties still have the same defaults that are in the regular oils so they break down just as fast and ware just as fast as regular oil.

Full Synthetic should be changed between 5000 and 7500 mile intervals according to your driving habits. Regular oil is 2000 to 3000 according to your driving habits. Blend's are the same as regular like I said. So yes Full Synthetic is more expensive but you actually save money because you do it so much less and less ware will happen to your motor. When first changing over to Full Synthetic you should change it in the time zone as the blend because of residual oil in the block and cooling systems if equipped. These recommendations come out of the testing labs and not from the manufacture. These testing labs check the break down of the lubricate additives and this is what they recommend.

Synthetic Engine Oils
There are a number of engine oils being promoted as either synthetic or semi-synthetic. If you chose to use such a product, use only those oils that meet the American Petroleum Institute (API) and SAE viscosity standard. Follow the service schedule that describes your driving type.

Last but not least remember this:

Materials Added to Engine Oils
The manufacture strongly recommends against the addition
of any additives (other than leak detection dyes) to
the engine oil. Engine oil is an engineered product and
itís performance may be impaired by supplemental additives.


This means NO additives!
 
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Old 03-11-2009, 09:08 PM
adkmurray
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The manual for my recently acquired 2007 Durango 4.7L does not have the usual temperature chart for proper oil. It shows 5W-20 only. I have never owned any vehicle that would not be able to use 5W 30 or 40 for summer. I now have 6 qts. of good 5W-30 for my 4.7L. Is it imperative that I return what I have rather than use the 5W-30? I know very little about the 4.7 and really find it hard to believe that it would cause a problem using the 5-30 for over this summer. Any comments would be appreciated.
Jim
 
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  #3  
Old 03-14-2009, 01:07 AM
adkmurray
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Default Re: Use of 5W-20

Here's an interesting write up on why 5W20 is used and also the affect on your warranty etc.. Written by an engineer from an oil company. Sorry for the long post but a good read.
Jim
The 5W-20 recommended is a move on the automakers part to get better CAFE #'s that they can report to the Federal Govt. I am very familar with the reasoning behind this by the auto manufacturers. It basically saves about 0.06 MPG, which is nothing to the consumer but multipled by millions of vehicles it alows them to meet the strict and tightening EPA CAFE regulations and by doing that they can sell more profitable SUV's and have the CAFE #'s offset by the cars and smaller vehicles that get better fuel economy. It's all a numbers game.

Recently several automotive manufacturers started using 5W-20 or 0W-20 motor oil as a factory fill. Most consumers have many questions about this "new" oil and why after all these years specifying a 5W-30 that they would make the change to 5W-20 or 0W-20. First I must explain that 5W-20 ( or 0W-20) is not a new viscosity motor. 5W-20 has been around since the early 1970's, but not used by consumers or marketed to consumers by manufacturers, until recently.

My research has uncovered the following from a SAE technical paper written by Mobil Research and Development Corp. in 1975 (o): "Research Oil 5 (RO-5) is a conventional 5W-20 viscosity mineral oil product containing an API SE quality additive treatment, but that it may be deficient in some API SE engine performance requirements. RO-6 is also a 5W-20 viscosity and API quality SE but utilizes all-ester (synthetic) base stock components. Adequate wear protection with conventional 5W-20 viscosity mineral oils has been difficult to achieve under moderate and high temperature operating conditions." Mobil's new 5W-20 synthetic formulation, XRN 1669 "has been evaluated in both laboratory and field tests to determine its antiwear performance. In all cases, wear protection equal to or better than premium API SE quality SAE 10W-40 mineral oils has been provided by this experimental formulation"

Now, keep in mind that this is from about 30+ years ago. My intent here is to show that 5W-20 is not a new viscosity of oil. It just never became widely used. The most popular motor oils back in that era for automotive use were typically 10W-40 and in later years 10W-30 and 5W-30. What this data indicated is that a 5W-20 petroleum oil provides adequate engine protection under normal operating conditions, but does not compare to a premium quality 5W-20 synthetic in moderate and high temperature operating conditions. The new 5W-20 oils of today are formulated to meet the latest API SL performance specifications and are perfectly suitable for use in your new vehicle that specifies 5W-20, however my personal opinion is that there are superior oils to use that not only meet the 5W-20 performance specifications, but also exceed them.

Here is a brief discussion of some of the most common questions consumers have regarding the 5W-20 motor oil that is specified for their new vehicle.
Question: Do I really need to use 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil?

Answer: You certainly can if you choose to, however there are also other viscosities you can use such as 5W-30 and 0W-30 that also meet manufacturers and API specifications. One of the main reasons 5W-20 or 0W-20 was specified for your engine is to increase the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) reported to the Federal Government. CAFE is the combined average fuel economy of all of a vehicle manufacturers product line. Minimum CAFE levels are specified by the Federal Government. In order for a vehicle manufacturer to continue selling profitable large trucks and SUV's, which typically have poor fuel mileage ratings, as compared to smaller cars, and still meet mandated CAFE requirements, they must also sell enough of the smaller cars which have much better fuel economy ratings to offset the poor fuel economy ratings of the larger vehicles. The change to a 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil will allow a manufacturers overall CAFE to increase by a very small amount, typically in the tenths of a mile per gallon range. 5W-20 and 0W-20 oil is a lighter viscosity than a 5W-30 oil and therefore has less internal engine frictional losses, or less drag on the crankshaft, pistons and valve train, which in turn promotes increased fuel economy. This increased fuel economy is *******ly undetectable to the average motorist without the use of specialized engine monitoring and testing equipment under strictly controlled test track driving when compared to a 5W-30, 10W-30 or a 0W-30 viscosity motor oil. Note that certain specific vehicles, such as those with cylinders that selectively cut out to save energy, typically specify a 5W-20 or 0W-20 and for those vehicles it is best to use the viscosity recommended by the manufacturer.

Question: Could using a 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30 or even a 10W-40, oil in my vehicle which recommends a 5W-20 oil void my new car warranty?

Answer: Vehicle manufacturers recommend using motor oils meeting certain viscosity grades and American Petroleum Institute service requirements. Whether a motor oil is a 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30 or 10W-40 or even a synthetic vs. a petroleum based oil will not affect warranty coverage. The manufacturer is required by Federal Law to cover all equipment failures it would normally cover as long as the oil meets API service requirements and specifications and was not the cause of failure. In addition, the Federally mandated Magnuson - Moss Act states that a manufacturer may not require a specific brand or type of aftermarket product unless it is provided free of charge. If your dealership continues to tell you that you must use 5W-20 or 0W-20 motor oil and or/ a specific brand of 5W-20 or 0W-20 motor oil (and will not provide it free of charge), then ask them to put it in writing and then contact an attorney. Their position is inaccurate, and, in fact violates existing law.
Additionally, if there is ever a question of whether or not a particular motor oil was the cause of an engine failure make sure to get a sample of the used oil in a clean bottle, typically 6 oz. minimum. The oil can then be sent to an independent ASTM certified testing lab for analysis. This is standard procedure for most commercial vehicles, trucking, construction/excavation and fleet companies and there are many certified test labs all over the country. Remember, a knowledgeable and informed consumer is your best defense against being taken advantage of by a car dealership service center.

Question: My car dealership service center states that I must use 5W-20 or 0W-20 because the oil passages inside my engine are smaller and a higher viscosity oil will not properly flow through them. Is this a true statement?

Answer: That is ridiculous to assume that a manufacturer would purposely make the oil galleys and passages smaller. There is no technical or cost/performance benefit to doing this in reference to recommending a 20W motor oil over a 30W motor oil. My inspection of oil galleys, pistons, bearings, crankshafts, oil pumps and passages from pre-5W-20 and 0W-20 recommended oil engines to the same size and brand of engines that now specify 5W-20 or 0W-20 indicate there are no measurable differences in the oil passages in these components.
 
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Old 04-01-2009, 01:07 AM
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Surprise surprise surprise.

Loser.

IndyD
 
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  #5  
Old 04-08-2009, 06:31 PM
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I like what I'm reading! ^ LMFAO ^ as I'm on the ground rolling laughing SO hard!

Now this guy is talking about 1975 research on "conventional 5W-20 viscosity mineral oil product" and tiring to compare it to conventional 5W-20 petroleum Fully Synthetic or a Regular petroleum based 5W-20 oil.

Another thing on this is:

"Note that certain specific vehicles, such as those with cylinders that selectively cut out to save energy, typically specify a 5W-20 or 0W-20 and for those vehicles it is best to use the viscosity recommended by the manufacturer."

The motors being made now are including these types of building. As motors are being developed new oil galleys, pistons, bearings, crankshafts, oil pumps and passages are being refined.

Now look at API......

API service requirements and specifications change on viscosity for your engine because of mineral make up and clearances. Not to mention anti-wear properties of the newer lubricants.

Yes the 5W or 10W has more viscosity index than 0w but in a motor designed for a thinner viscosity the tolerances between bearings a thicker viscosity could over heat the lubricant because the lubricant canít flow through the engine as designed.

The funny thing here is this guy says "he has ripped apart may engines including all new engines", but you canít compare to anything because itís a new motor. HELLO!

Now talking about apples to apples like an older 360 vs. a new 360 when they were designed to run 10w-40 now run 10w-30 because of the oil industry refined 10w-30 to better standards and so it holds up better. But itís still a 10W.

My personal favorite statement:

ďVehicle manufacturers recommend using motor oils meeting certain viscosity grades and American Petroleum Institute service requirements. Whether a motor oil is a 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30 or 10W-40 or even a synthetic vs. a petroleum based oil will not affect warranty coverage. The manufacturer is required by Federal Law to cover all equipment failures it would normally cover as long as the oil meets API service requirements and specificationsĒ

Think about this ^^^^^^ LOL.....

The lubricants mentioned above in 0W, 5W, 10W are all different viscosities so they arenít using the same viscosity as manufacture specified. When a user changes over from a 5W-20 to a 10W-40 failure can occur because the oil canít move like I described above and overheats the motor. The API is completely different than the index viscosity for each.

ďas long as the oil meets API service requirements and specificationsĒ

API might be the same but not specifications.


Now if I have MY motor relying on this statement then I think I would put the right oil in it wouldnít you?
 

Last edited by hydrashocker; 04-08-2009 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 07-01-2010, 10:28 PM
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adkmurry is right. I've been in the new car business for since 06 and the said intel is solid. Jeep, Ram, Explorer, Mazda 3, Miata, D, my bikes ALL get 15-40 Rotella and I've NEVER had one issue.
 
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Old 02-20-2011, 03:24 PM
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I damn near distroyed my engine on 5-30 Royal Purple. Poor gas mileage,hard starting, using a quart every 200 miles. When I changed to Mobil 1, I doubled my gas mileage, and quit using,or oil lost, and poor performance. It felt like someone had pulled a governor off the thing. Durango 360 1999 SLT 82,000
 
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Old 10-07-2012, 01:36 AM
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I have been using Mobil 1 high mileage synthetic for a while. Before that Castrol 4x4 Full Synthetic. When I bought my 04 Durango, my first oil change was in the first week and I went to synthetic. Every vehicle I have had runs cooler and smoother on synthetic, I have not noticed any mileage gains, but I won't run anything else. From now on everything will run a Mobil 1 product...


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Old 12-06-2012, 06:38 PM
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As far as I know, in the specification of 10w-30 for example, the viscosity (at working temperature) is rated in the second number (20, 30, 40, 50), and the first one refers to the resistance of oil to keep the specified viscosity at low temps. For example, a 20w-50 oil has the same viscosity as 5w-50, but at lower temp like winter or snow, the 20w will get heavier when cold, and takes more time from star to lubricate all engine parts. The 5w-50, instead, lubricates faster because when cold, doesn't get heavier.

So, the "w" is for winter, not for wieght, and it refers to the cold start keeping viscosity propierty. This is some interesting info:

Grades


The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) has established a numerical code system for grading motor oils according to their viscosity characteristics. SAE viscosity gradings include the following, from low to high viscosity: 0, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 40, 50 or 60. The numbers 0, 5, 10, 15 and 25 are suffixed with the letter W, designating their "winter" (not "weight") or cold-start viscosity, at lower temperature. The number 20 comes with or without a W, depending on whether it is being used to denote a cold or hot viscosity grade. The document SAE J300 defines the viscometrics related to these grades.

Kinematic viscosity is graded by measuring the time it takes for a standard amount of oil to flow through a standard orifice, at standard temperatures. The longer it takes, the higher the viscosity and thus higher SAE code.


A single-grade engine oil, as defined by SAE J300, cannot use a polymeric Viscosity Index Improver (also referred to as Viscosity Modifier) additive. SAE J300 has established eleven viscosity grades, of which six are considered Winter-grades and given a W designation. The 11 viscosity grades are 0W, 5W, 10W, 15W, 20W, 25W, 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60. These numbers are often referred to as the "weight" of a motor oil, and single-grade motor oils are often called "straight-weight" oils.

For single winter grade oils, the dynamic viscosity is measured at different cold temperatures, specified in J300 depending on the viscosity grade, in units of mPa∑s, or the equivalent older non-SI units, centipoise (abbreviated cP), using two different test methods. They are the Cold Cranking Simulator (ASTMD5293) and the Mini-Rotary Viscometer (ASTM D4684). Based on the coldest temperature the oil passes at, that oil is graded as SAE viscosity grade 0W, 5W, 10W, 15W, 20W, or 25W. The lower the viscosity grade, the lower the temperature the oil can pass. For example, if an oil passes at the specifications for 10W and 5W, but fails for 0W, then that oil must be labeled as an SAE 5W. That oil cannot be labeled as either 0W or 10W.

For single non-winter grade oils, the kinematic viscosity is measured at a temperature of 100 įC (212 įF) in units of mm2/s (millimeter squared per second) or the equivalent older non-SI units, centistokes (abbreviated cSt). Based on the range of viscosity the oil falls in at that temperature, the oil is graded as SAE viscosity grade 20, 30, 40, 50, or 60. In addition, for SAE grades 20, 30, and 1000, a minimum viscosity measured at 150 įC (302 įF) and at a high-shear rate is also required. The higher the viscosity, the higher the SAE viscosity grade is.


Please correct me if i'm wrong
 

Last edited by LONEWOLF2007; 12-06-2012 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 03-15-2014, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by adkmurray View Post
The manual for my recently acquired 2007 Durango 4.7L does not have the usual temperature chart for proper oil. It shows 5W-20 only. I have never owned any vehicle that would not be able to use 5W 30 or 40 for summer. I now have 6 qts. of good 5W-30 for my 4.7L. Is it imperative that I return what I have rather than use the 5W-30? I know very little about the 4.7 and really find it hard to believe that it would cause a problem using the 5-30 for over this summer. Any comments would be appreciated.
Jim
Ford Explorer best selling suv , Dodge Durango can't get close to that never.
 
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