Need any advice.
#1
03-24-2011, 12:06 AM
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Need any advice.
I need some high level help on my 2005 Dodge Neon 2.0L. Manual transmission (125,000 Miles)
*
Back story: Being adamant about proper care to my vehicle, and working under the apparently incorrect assumption that it has an interference engine. *I employed a local shop to perform preventative maintenance on the vehicle. *I had the water pump, timing belt, and tensioner replaced as well as the accessory belts. *After picking the vehicle up it had a noticeable toothy vibration in the steering wheel and a sound not unlike a stock car in the passenger cabin. *This sound and vibration was not very noticeable from the exterior of the vehicle. *I asked and was told that it would take about a week for the belt to break in. *About a week later the sound had not gotten any better and was not good at all under very cold conditions. *I also began to notice a squeaking noise when the throttle was exercised. *I then returned the vehicle to the shop very confident that something was not right.
*
Upon a test drive it was diagnosed as likely having failed engine mounts causing the engine to rest on the frame. *Research had told me that engine mounts are items that will need replaced on this vehicle especially with manual transmission. *So I agreed to have them replace the engine mounts in hopes that this would solve the problem. *It did not.
*
So, at this point they have had the vehicle for over a week and are no closer to finding a solution. *Initially they removed the timing cover and ran the engine and diagnosed a bad tensioner (bearing). *This was a brand new MOPAR part! *They replaced it to no avail. *I am not sure at this point the order of things, but I can recap some of the work that has been done.
*
The tensioner has now been replaced 4 times. *The water pump and belt 2 times. *At one point they noticed that the timing was 5 degrees off. *One belt tooth is 8 degrees so it was decided that the belt had been damaged by the initial failure of the tensioner. *Now that timing is correct the problem persists.*
*
Fearing that, the while it was believed that this engine was interference type, the chance that engine had been damaged was suspected. *Compression, leak down, and visual inspection of the cylinders through bore scope were performed. *Everything tested fine.
*
Dodge dealer tech has been brought in to verify proper installation of all parts.
*
Service bulletin was eventually found detailing alignment procedure for engine mount replacement (apparently dealer did not know this one existed). *Did not help though.
*
Was taken to another shop and placed on some type of Chrysler machine that balanced/timed/something with the crank and cam shafts.
*
Shop has resorted to testing minor things like the coil and plugs, but they are still trying.
*
Moral of the story I took a perfectly good running car in to have some parts swapped, now the car is AFU.
*
Please help
*
*
*
Back story: Being adamant about proper care to my vehicle, and working under the apparently incorrect assumption that it has an interference engine. *I employed a local shop to perform preventative maintenance on the vehicle. *I had the water pump, timing belt, and tensioner replaced as well as the accessory belts. *After picking the vehicle up it had a noticeable toothy vibration in the steering wheel and a sound not unlike a stock car in the passenger cabin. *This sound and vibration was not very noticeable from the exterior of the vehicle. *I asked and was told that it would take about a week for the belt to break in. *About a week later the sound had not gotten any better and was not good at all under very cold conditions. *I also began to notice a squeaking noise when the throttle was exercised. *I then returned the vehicle to the shop very confident that something was not right.
*
Upon a test drive it was diagnosed as likely having failed engine mounts causing the engine to rest on the frame. *Research had told me that engine mounts are items that will need replaced on this vehicle especially with manual transmission. *So I agreed to have them replace the engine mounts in hopes that this would solve the problem. *It did not.
*
So, at this point they have had the vehicle for over a week and are no closer to finding a solution. *Initially they removed the timing cover and ran the engine and diagnosed a bad tensioner (bearing). *This was a brand new MOPAR part! *They replaced it to no avail. *I am not sure at this point the order of things, but I can recap some of the work that has been done.
*
The tensioner has now been replaced 4 times. *The water pump and belt 2 times. *At one point they noticed that the timing was 5 degrees off. *One belt tooth is 8 degrees so it was decided that the belt had been damaged by the initial failure of the tensioner. *Now that timing is correct the problem persists.*
*
Fearing that, the while it was believed that this engine was interference type, the chance that engine had been damaged was suspected. *Compression, leak down, and visual inspection of the cylinders through bore scope were performed. *Everything tested fine.
*
Dodge dealer tech has been brought in to verify proper installation of all parts.
*
Service bulletin was eventually found detailing alignment procedure for engine mount replacement (apparently dealer did not know this one existed). *Did not help though.
*
Was taken to another shop and placed on some type of Chrysler machine that balanced/timed/something with the crank and cam shafts.
*
Shop has resorted to testing minor things like the coil and plugs, but they are still trying.
*
Moral of the story I took a perfectly good running car in to have some parts swapped, now the car is AFU.
*
Please help
*
*
#2
03-24-2011, 12:59 AM
Why is it an "incorrect assumption" that the Neon has an interference engine? It does. You are asking where the sound and vibration are coming from, yes?
Was the main engine mount marked before they removed it? That mount is supposed to go exactly in the same spot/position where it was when it is put back together. That has to do with that torque strut alignment procedure you mention.
Can you describe the sound any better? I'm not following that part all that well as you describe it as a "stock car" inside, but hardly audible outside.
Was the main engine mount marked before they removed it? That mount is supposed to go exactly in the same spot/position where it was when it is put back together. That has to do with that torque strut alignment procedure you mention.
Can you describe the sound any better? I'm not following that part all that well as you describe it as a "stock car" inside, but hardly audible outside.
#3
03-24-2011, 01:18 AM
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Why is it an "incorrect assumption" that the Neon has an interference engine? It does. You are asking where the sound and vibration are coming from, yes?
Was the main engine mount marked before they removed it? That mount is supposed to go exactly in the same spot/position where it was when it is put back together. That has to do with that torque strut alignment procedure you mention.
Can you describe the sound any better? I'm not following that part all that well as you describe it as a "stock car" inside, but hardly audible outside.
Was the main engine mount marked before they removed it? That mount is supposed to go exactly in the same spot/position where it was when it is put back together. That has to do with that torque strut alignment procedure you mention.
Can you describe the sound any better? I'm not following that part all that well as you describe it as a "stock car" inside, but hardly audible outside.
I do not know about marking of the mount, but I do know they replaced it. And followed the alignment procedure for new mounts per Chrysler.
My best description of the noise would be a loud throaty sound that would make one think the toothed belt had slack or was misaligned. They have been over the alignment of this belt in every way imaginable several times with no luck. The sound seems almost ported to the cab. The vibration is most noticeable while gripping the steering wheel. The vibration was initially only noticeable at higher rpm and while the engine was cold. I am being told now that it is only noticeable when the car warms up. I think if they have it together in the morning I am going to take it for a spin and get a feel for where it is now. I haven't driven it since the initial problem.
#4
03-24-2011, 02:04 AM
Is the tensioner spring properly "set-in?" Meaning, it's where it should be?
Is the timing belt rubbing the inside of the timing cover? Was the bracket reused? There are two different brackets. One has a sleeve of sorts going through it, for alignment I guess, and it could make the belt stick out just too far if it shouldn't have that bracket.
What brand were the replacement parts? There have been complaints of noise after a timing belt change when using Gates parts. I've got Gates parts on mine and mine doesn't make any new noises.
#5
03-24-2011, 02:23 AM
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I'm sure they didn't mark the location, but I can ask in the am. I believe that is where the alignment SB they located comes into play.
The tensioner spring I am being told is set properly. This has been verified by Chrysler tech. They did notice some lack of tension on the mechanical tensioner, but were told by Chrysler that the bracket develops it's own tension when running with a cam. Not sure about that one.
Not sure which bracket you are referring to. I believe the tensioner came with a bracket. This kinda leads to a suspicion that I have had all along, that Chrysler provided the wrong parts. And yes, all parts are strait from MOPAR. Wouldn't be the first time the local dealer has screwed me.
I doubt that the belt is rubbing the timing cover. As much as they have been over this thing I'm sure they would have noticed, not to mention the problem is evident even when running without the timing cover in place.
The tensioner spring I am being told is set properly. This has been verified by Chrysler tech. They did notice some lack of tension on the mechanical tensioner, but were told by Chrysler that the bracket develops it's own tension when running with a cam. Not sure about that one.
Not sure which bracket you are referring to. I believe the tensioner came with a bracket. This kinda leads to a suspicion that I have had all along, that Chrysler provided the wrong parts. And yes, all parts are strait from MOPAR. Wouldn't be the first time the local dealer has screwed me.
I doubt that the belt is rubbing the timing cover. As much as they have been over this thing I'm sure they would have noticed, not to mention the problem is evident even when running without the timing cover in place.
#6
03-24-2011, 04:59 AM
#7
03-25-2011, 12:15 AM
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Update:
*
So I went over today to get more scoop, add some ideas, and test drive the car so I could use my own judgment to see where we were at.* To my surprise the car runs great.* It would appear that the bad tensioner and subsequent damaged belt most likely was the problem.* Now what they have been fighting is a rough idle situation that presents itself after the car is warmed up.
*
It would appear that when the car is cold the idle is staying at about 1000 rpm.* With this, it runs smooth as a baby’s bottom.* Once the car warms up it drops to about 800 rpm and starts to shake some.* I do not believe this is in direct relation to the timing belt work that was done, but perhaps due to something that might have been tweeked during the work to troubleshoot it.* It is a great relief for this to be the only problem now.* It sounded so bed before and I thought they still had that problem.* While they were bore sighting it he said they did notice some carbon buildup in the cylinders, so I bought 2 bottles of seafoam to run in the tank to try to clear it up a little.
*
I took the car home for the day and played with it to study the problem more.* Initial suspicion was that the IAC could be acting up.* Called around town and nobody had one in stock.* Wouldn’t think it would be bad since I replaced it 15 months ago though.* So tonight I took it off and sprayed some cleaner in it for good measure.* Everything looked good on it.* Plugs and wires are probably 20-30,000 miles old.* Could be them, but doubt it.
*
If I Idle warm (800 RPM or so) it shakes some.
If I try to turn the wheel a little it shakes worse.
I set in it for a while tonight with it idling and noticed that a change in the fan seems to affect it.* It sounds like if the fan kicks off it shakes more, but logic is telling me that it may be the fan kicking on.* May need to study this further in the daylight.
*
Basically, it looks like at just idling it shakes a little, seems that is I apply any idle load to the engine it makes it worse.* The shop was going to check today and see what proper RPM should be.
*
Wondering if it could be the alternator.* If the alternator is going bad, and increased electrical load is applied, such as kicking in the fan or running the blower, would possibly drag down the engine?
*
Any other suggestions would be appreciated
*
So I went over today to get more scoop, add some ideas, and test drive the car so I could use my own judgment to see where we were at.* To my surprise the car runs great.* It would appear that the bad tensioner and subsequent damaged belt most likely was the problem.* Now what they have been fighting is a rough idle situation that presents itself after the car is warmed up.
*
It would appear that when the car is cold the idle is staying at about 1000 rpm.* With this, it runs smooth as a baby’s bottom.* Once the car warms up it drops to about 800 rpm and starts to shake some.* I do not believe this is in direct relation to the timing belt work that was done, but perhaps due to something that might have been tweeked during the work to troubleshoot it.* It is a great relief for this to be the only problem now.* It sounded so bed before and I thought they still had that problem.* While they were bore sighting it he said they did notice some carbon buildup in the cylinders, so I bought 2 bottles of seafoam to run in the tank to try to clear it up a little.
*
I took the car home for the day and played with it to study the problem more.* Initial suspicion was that the IAC could be acting up.* Called around town and nobody had one in stock.* Wouldn’t think it would be bad since I replaced it 15 months ago though.* So tonight I took it off and sprayed some cleaner in it for good measure.* Everything looked good on it.* Plugs and wires are probably 20-30,000 miles old.* Could be them, but doubt it.
*
If I Idle warm (800 RPM or so) it shakes some.
If I try to turn the wheel a little it shakes worse.
I set in it for a while tonight with it idling and noticed that a change in the fan seems to affect it.* It sounds like if the fan kicks off it shakes more, but logic is telling me that it may be the fan kicking on.* May need to study this further in the daylight.
*
Basically, it looks like at just idling it shakes a little, seems that is I apply any idle load to the engine it makes it worse.* The shop was going to check today and see what proper RPM should be.
*
Wondering if it could be the alternator.* If the alternator is going bad, and increased electrical load is applied, such as kicking in the fan or running the blower, would possibly drag down the engine?
*
Any other suggestions would be appreciated
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#8
03-25-2011, 01:04 AM
I Got a feeling that one of ur Pulley is wobbling or out of balance?
Or perhaps one or ur accesories are binding.
I recommend Remove the Drive belt and Run the car on Charger instead of Alternator. Ur water pump is Timing belt driven, so it will not overheat. If Engine idles smooth at 800 RPM with No belt driven accesories, you found the problem.
Yeah, It could be ur Alternator, A/C compressor, or P/S pump. Or the Harmonic Balancer itself.
But the Odd thing is, it is almost like ur Engine is fighting to keep the target RPM up, so Something is alrdy dragging the Engine down.
You have Oil pressure gauge? Wonder what's ur Oil pressure at, see if it is too High or too low. Oil pump could be a load, internal in the engine.
Or perhaps one or ur accesories are binding.
I recommend Remove the Drive belt and Run the car on Charger instead of Alternator. Ur water pump is Timing belt driven, so it will not overheat. If Engine idles smooth at 800 RPM with No belt driven accesories, you found the problem.
Yeah, It could be ur Alternator, A/C compressor, or P/S pump. Or the Harmonic Balancer itself.
But the Odd thing is, it is almost like ur Engine is fighting to keep the target RPM up, so Something is alrdy dragging the Engine down.
You have Oil pressure gauge? Wonder what's ur Oil pressure at, see if it is too High or too low. Oil pump could be a load, internal in the engine.
#9
03-25-2011, 03:23 AM