Which Battery ?
#31
03-31-2013, 10:23 AM
Thats the same I was coming up with last year when I was researching batteries. Thats why I told OP to research them a bit, to make up his own mind.
#33
03-31-2013, 05:51 PM
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I left my red top optima battery in my viper in the garage stored for 6 months . When I went to pick up my truck v10, I move the battery from the viper to the truck. Although it showed 12 volts, I was not sure of the amps and decide to put on a quick charge. Truck started right away. I have the blue tops in my motorhome. Tried others, including ones mentioned here.
#34
04-01-2013, 01:15 PM
ZipZap, folks throw a lot of terms around to describe chargers, including “trickle” and “float,” but generally speaking, maintaining proper voltage with any quality battery maintenance device is preferable to not maintaining it at all. The best units are microprocessor-controlled and will have specific settings for AGM batteries and there are plenty to choose from.
HammerZ71, we sell MANY, MANY more AGM batteries than everyone else out there, combined. As a result, there is likely to be far more conversations about our products, both good and bad. Anyone who has spent any amount of time on automotive forums has probably come across posts from people complaining about how someone who works at ___ Auto Parts doesn't know what they're talking about. However, when that same person tells a customer they don't carry a product because of high return rates, their word is taken as gospel, even if that is not the case.
Additionally, as you know from your work as a forum administrator, the information people post online is not always accurate or truthful. You and I participated in a thread on another 4x4 board two years ago, where someone who worked at “the largest national automotive chain in the world” jumped to the conclusion that "one of our major sources for lead is no longer lead.” How can a source of lead be anything but lead? I waited for someone, anyone to ask that same question on that board, but no one did.
People are welcome to share whatever stories they think are credible, whether it is their own experience or that of a friend or a friend of a friend (heresay). However, I would caution everyone to consider the source and the amount of information provided. In many instances (including past conversations HammerZ71), I've asked for contact information for retailers claiming to have issues with our products, but rarely, if ever, is that information provided. While I'm flattered that folks think I have the power to get people fired from their place of business for something their friend posted online, that just isn't the case. We know the quality of our products has never been better, but if there are retailers who are having issues, we'd like to find out about them and address them.
Do we have batteries that fail from a manufacturing defects? Absolutely. You can't build millions of anything and not have some not turn out exactly as you'd planned. However, our defect rate is extremely low and frankly the defect rate in the battery industry as a whole is far lower than message board conversations would suggest. It's really wasteful to think about how many batteries are mistakenly returned under warranty each year. We're probably one of the more active companies out there in terms of addressing it on the consumer side of things, but I've read the warranty language from other brands and know they are dealing with the same issues. The people who take the time to really look at the situation and understand it can really use it to their advantage.
msdodge, it was smart of you to recharge your battery with a battery charger, when you brought your vehicle out of storage. Most batteries that only measure 12.0 volts are more than 40% discharged. In so many other cases, folks don't give any thought as to whether their battery is fully-charged when they bring a vehicle out of storage, unless it won't start their vehicle. Even in those cases, their solution is often just a quick jump-start, which usually makes the situation worse.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries
HammerZ71, we sell MANY, MANY more AGM batteries than everyone else out there, combined. As a result, there is likely to be far more conversations about our products, both good and bad. Anyone who has spent any amount of time on automotive forums has probably come across posts from people complaining about how someone who works at ___ Auto Parts doesn't know what they're talking about. However, when that same person tells a customer they don't carry a product because of high return rates, their word is taken as gospel, even if that is not the case.
Additionally, as you know from your work as a forum administrator, the information people post online is not always accurate or truthful. You and I participated in a thread on another 4x4 board two years ago, where someone who worked at “the largest national automotive chain in the world” jumped to the conclusion that "one of our major sources for lead is no longer lead.” How can a source of lead be anything but lead? I waited for someone, anyone to ask that same question on that board, but no one did.
People are welcome to share whatever stories they think are credible, whether it is their own experience or that of a friend or a friend of a friend (heresay). However, I would caution everyone to consider the source and the amount of information provided. In many instances (including past conversations HammerZ71), I've asked for contact information for retailers claiming to have issues with our products, but rarely, if ever, is that information provided. While I'm flattered that folks think I have the power to get people fired from their place of business for something their friend posted online, that just isn't the case. We know the quality of our products has never been better, but if there are retailers who are having issues, we'd like to find out about them and address them.
Do we have batteries that fail from a manufacturing defects? Absolutely. You can't build millions of anything and not have some not turn out exactly as you'd planned. However, our defect rate is extremely low and frankly the defect rate in the battery industry as a whole is far lower than message board conversations would suggest. It's really wasteful to think about how many batteries are mistakenly returned under warranty each year. We're probably one of the more active companies out there in terms of addressing it on the consumer side of things, but I've read the warranty language from other brands and know they are dealing with the same issues. The people who take the time to really look at the situation and understand it can really use it to their advantage.
msdodge, it was smart of you to recharge your battery with a battery charger, when you brought your vehicle out of storage. Most batteries that only measure 12.0 volts are more than 40% discharged. In so many other cases, folks don't give any thought as to whether their battery is fully-charged when they bring a vehicle out of storage, unless it won't start their vehicle. Even in those cases, their solution is often just a quick jump-start, which usually makes the situation worse.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries
#35
04-01-2013, 01:32 PM
Its good to have a rep. here to help "set things straight". As we all know, a VERY small percent of people come to these forums and say everything is fine. They/we come here to say this is fvcked or that is fvcked. This product or brand is junk. Etc. Etc.
Now on the other hand, I know reps arent going to "bash" there own product either.
On that note, OptimaJim, do you or can you give at least an estimate (realistic) on percentage of warrenty returns due to product failure and not user error?
Now on the other hand, I know reps arent going to "bash" there own product either.
On that note, OptimaJim, do you or can you give at least an estimate (realistic) on percentage of warrenty returns due to product failure and not user error?
#36
04-05-2013, 10:05 AM
kejobe, if I have one wish for my job it would be that they would allow me to share our manufacturing defect rate, because it is incredibly low, probably lower than some folks would believe, based on their personal experiences. Unfortunately, no one in the industry shares that information and I am not allowed to do so either.
I can use a hypothetical scenario to help illustrate a typical issue I see on forums. If any battery manufacturer had a defect rate of 10%, meaning one in ten batteries they produced didn't work, they'd probably go out of business very quickly. Keeping that in mind and using that as an example, even if that were the case, the chances of someone buying one of those defective batteries would only be one in ten- 10%. The chances of them buying two defective batteries in a row would be reduced to 1%. The chances of them buying three defective batteries in a row would be .1%. Yet, I have come across multiple threads, where folks complain about getting three (and sometimes even more) "bad" batteries in a row. Are these people really beating those odds, which are far longer than 1,000 to 1, and typically include a vehicle with significant electrical modifications?
I rarely, if ever, see anyone in those threads suggesting the OP might have an electrical issue not related to the battery. Maybe it's because most folks have had trouble with their batteries before, or at least trouble they attributed to their batteries? I don't care what brand of battery someone is using, if someone has managed to get three defective batteries in a row in a relatively-short time frame, they have an electrical issue that is unrelated to the battery. Batteries are easy to replace and in some cases, replacing the battery will correct the real problem of a loose connection or mask an underlying problem of a parasitic draw...at least for a while, which only adds to the confusion.
I can tell you that unnecessary warranty returns are a major concern in our industry and all manufacturers and retailers are trying to find ways to minimize those numbers. This will only become more important as Start/Stop technology comes into the new car market. That technology requires more from batteries, so many new vehicles equipped with that technology will be using AGM batteries and that also means a shift in the aftermarket to more AGM products on the shelves.
Because AGM batteries are more efficient than their flooded counterparts, they will continue delivering current far longer than flooded batteries, which have much higher internal resistance. That's great news if you are a tournament angler and need to run your batteries down to 7 volts on a windy day. That's not so great news if you park a Corvette in a garage for months at a time and don't keep your battery on some kind of maintainer.
When batteries do become deeply-discharged, many battery chargers will not recognize or charge them, due to their low voltage levels. This is a safeguard some charger manufacturers have incorporated into their products to prevent chargers from delivering current to batteries that have a shorted cell. Batteries with shorted cells will typically not hold more than 10.5 volts, so if a battery is discharged below that level, the charger either won't turn on or won't stay on, if the voltage doesn't reach a certain level in a specific amount of time. That primitive technology can work just fine for flooded batteries, but it makes people with AGM batteries believe their battery is bad, when that's not the case at all.
Use the same charger and connect another battery with higher voltage in parallel with the deeply-discharged battery and the charger will have no trouble delivering current to the deeply-discharged battery, because of the higher voltage it sees in the other battery. It's a
we've spent a lot of resources to promote for several years.
Some other manufacturers take a different approach and simply void the warranty on their batteries, if they are found to be discharged below a minimum voltage level. That policy is sure to cut down on unnecessary warranty returns, but probably won't make for happy customers. When "the customer is always right," we end up with such large quantities of discharge-only warranty returns, that we now sponsor the Chumpcar World Series and give those batteries to the racers to use in their cars.
The difference is that we explain to these racers how they ended up with these free batteries- someone else mistakenly thought they were bad, so they got rid of them. We know there's nothing wrong with them, because we charged them up and load-tested them. Other people who get their hands on "refurbished" or "remanufactured" batteries are never told how they came upon such a great deal, so they can't make the connection. When I stop seeing these used batteries being sold, I know we're getting through to people and the supply of discharge-only batteries is drying up.
Our approach is probably more expensive up front, but we don't believe simply voiding warranties and sending people on their way will properly address the issue over the long haul, especially as the industry continues to move toward AGM batteries and away from flooded batteries. If we could just get folks to understand jump-starting a car and letting it idle in their driveway won't recover their deeply-discharged battery, we'd be miles ahead of where we're at right now.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries
I can use a hypothetical scenario to help illustrate a typical issue I see on forums. If any battery manufacturer had a defect rate of 10%, meaning one in ten batteries they produced didn't work, they'd probably go out of business very quickly. Keeping that in mind and using that as an example, even if that were the case, the chances of someone buying one of those defective batteries would only be one in ten- 10%. The chances of them buying two defective batteries in a row would be reduced to 1%. The chances of them buying three defective batteries in a row would be .1%. Yet, I have come across multiple threads, where folks complain about getting three (and sometimes even more) "bad" batteries in a row. Are these people really beating those odds, which are far longer than 1,000 to 1, and typically include a vehicle with significant electrical modifications?
I rarely, if ever, see anyone in those threads suggesting the OP might have an electrical issue not related to the battery. Maybe it's because most folks have had trouble with their batteries before, or at least trouble they attributed to their batteries? I don't care what brand of battery someone is using, if someone has managed to get three defective batteries in a row in a relatively-short time frame, they have an electrical issue that is unrelated to the battery. Batteries are easy to replace and in some cases, replacing the battery will correct the real problem of a loose connection or mask an underlying problem of a parasitic draw...at least for a while, which only adds to the confusion.
I can tell you that unnecessary warranty returns are a major concern in our industry and all manufacturers and retailers are trying to find ways to minimize those numbers. This will only become more important as Start/Stop technology comes into the new car market. That technology requires more from batteries, so many new vehicles equipped with that technology will be using AGM batteries and that also means a shift in the aftermarket to more AGM products on the shelves.
Because AGM batteries are more efficient than their flooded counterparts, they will continue delivering current far longer than flooded batteries, which have much higher internal resistance. That's great news if you are a tournament angler and need to run your batteries down to 7 volts on a windy day. That's not so great news if you park a Corvette in a garage for months at a time and don't keep your battery on some kind of maintainer.
When batteries do become deeply-discharged, many battery chargers will not recognize or charge them, due to their low voltage levels. This is a safeguard some charger manufacturers have incorporated into their products to prevent chargers from delivering current to batteries that have a shorted cell. Batteries with shorted cells will typically not hold more than 10.5 volts, so if a battery is discharged below that level, the charger either won't turn on or won't stay on, if the voltage doesn't reach a certain level in a specific amount of time. That primitive technology can work just fine for flooded batteries, but it makes people with AGM batteries believe their battery is bad, when that's not the case at all.
Use the same charger and connect another battery with higher voltage in parallel with the deeply-discharged battery and the charger will have no trouble delivering current to the deeply-discharged battery, because of the higher voltage it sees in the other battery. It's a
Some other manufacturers take a different approach and simply void the warranty on their batteries, if they are found to be discharged below a minimum voltage level. That policy is sure to cut down on unnecessary warranty returns, but probably won't make for happy customers. When "the customer is always right," we end up with such large quantities of discharge-only warranty returns, that we now sponsor the Chumpcar World Series and give those batteries to the racers to use in their cars.
The difference is that we explain to these racers how they ended up with these free batteries- someone else mistakenly thought they were bad, so they got rid of them. We know there's nothing wrong with them, because we charged them up and load-tested them. Other people who get their hands on "refurbished" or "remanufactured" batteries are never told how they came upon such a great deal, so they can't make the connection. When I stop seeing these used batteries being sold, I know we're getting through to people and the supply of discharge-only batteries is drying up.
Our approach is probably more expensive up front, but we don't believe simply voiding warranties and sending people on their way will properly address the issue over the long haul, especially as the industry continues to move toward AGM batteries and away from flooded batteries. If we could just get folks to understand jump-starting a car and letting it idle in their driveway won't recover their deeply-discharged battery, we'd be miles ahead of where we're at right now.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries
#37
04-05-2013, 11:35 PM
Jim,
That is some good info and thank you for putting it out here. I have had this argument many times. I used to keep batteries that were not being used and charge them together in parallel as you referenced (boat and RV especially as they do not get used on a regular basis) and would periodically swap them into a vehicle, then back to the rack. I keep a "maintainer" on RV most of the time to keep it charged.
Maintenance for a battery is as important to extending its life as any other piece of equipment. I do not believe that many people exceed the odds either.
I have heard that there are only 5 or 6 battery manufacturers (automotive batteries) in the country, and they manufacture and brand for retailers. I have always wondered if this was correct? Is it?
I have not tried an Optima Battery - but I might give one a shot the next time I have to buy one! Thanks.
That is some good info and thank you for putting it out here. I have had this argument many times. I used to keep batteries that were not being used and charge them together in parallel as you referenced (boat and RV especially as they do not get used on a regular basis) and would periodically swap them into a vehicle, then back to the rack. I keep a "maintainer" on RV most of the time to keep it charged.
Maintenance for a battery is as important to extending its life as any other piece of equipment. I do not believe that many people exceed the odds either.
I have heard that there are only 5 or 6 battery manufacturers (automotive batteries) in the country, and they manufacture and brand for retailers. I have always wondered if this was correct? Is it?
I have not tried an Optima Battery - but I might give one a shot the next time I have to buy one! Thanks.
#38
04-09-2013, 10:50 AM
At this point, car battery manufacturers are kind of like the automakers themselves. There is "The Big 3" and they supply the vast majority of the OE and aftermarket and then there are countless other smaller manufacturers all over the place, both here and abroad.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries