V10 turbo possibilities?
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From: Omaha NE
V10 turbo possibilities?
I've always liked the idea of doing a turbo setup on a v10 to make it a giant torque monster. I know I've read up on a couple other threads regarding this subject, and 6-7 psi of boost on a stock motor is considered to be ok. But what if I wanted more?
I know the v10s share the same bore as the 5.9 v8, and I've done a little research, and it appears that they share the same pistons as well. If I'm wanting to up my psi of boost, it would appear that I need forged internals, which are readily sold for the v10, but are still available for the v8. Would it be possible to use forged pistons for a v8 and implant them into a v10? Let's say: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiseco-PTS5...19.m1438.l2649
Those are .030 over, or maybe something like it?if they fit, and If I were to pop those in would I be sticking with standard 4.000 bore or bore it .030 out?
I also understand that Chrysler lowered the v10s compression because they didn't have a transmission strong enough to sub behind it, the reason that the v10 makes the max torque the 47re can handle. Everything appears to be the same between the piston on the v10 and v8, but would those increase the compression for optimum running for a turbo?(I'm new to turbos, and I want to learn how to set a motor up for one, I know the basics, not really the technicals like optimum compression and such)
I remember reading the v10 used forged steen rods already, would those be suitable for boost, I'm guessing?
As well for the crankshalft? Would I need to upgrade or would the stock crank be suitable?
I'd want to stick with a single turbo if possible, cause I'm looking to keeps it in the engine bay, but if I can't find a single turbo to fill all 488 cubes then I'd could explore dual turbo setups.
And finally, if I were able to get the forged pistons in there, and possibly any other parts, how much boost could be possible(and still safe)? Looking for good pulling truck.
I'm just gathering info on this subject cause I've wanted to do a v10 turbo build for awhile and love the idea. If anyone can help with info fitment that would be highly appreciated.
This is not a build thread, just a informatin(for now
)
I know the v10s share the same bore as the 5.9 v8, and I've done a little research, and it appears that they share the same pistons as well. If I'm wanting to up my psi of boost, it would appear that I need forged internals, which are readily sold for the v10, but are still available for the v8. Would it be possible to use forged pistons for a v8 and implant them into a v10? Let's say: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiseco-PTS5...19.m1438.l2649
Those are .030 over, or maybe something like it?if they fit, and If I were to pop those in would I be sticking with standard 4.000 bore or bore it .030 out?
I also understand that Chrysler lowered the v10s compression because they didn't have a transmission strong enough to sub behind it, the reason that the v10 makes the max torque the 47re can handle. Everything appears to be the same between the piston on the v10 and v8, but would those increase the compression for optimum running for a turbo?(I'm new to turbos, and I want to learn how to set a motor up for one, I know the basics, not really the technicals like optimum compression and such)
I remember reading the v10 used forged steen rods already, would those be suitable for boost, I'm guessing?
As well for the crankshalft? Would I need to upgrade or would the stock crank be suitable?
I'd want to stick with a single turbo if possible, cause I'm looking to keeps it in the engine bay, but if I can't find a single turbo to fill all 488 cubes then I'd could explore dual turbo setups.
And finally, if I were able to get the forged pistons in there, and possibly any other parts, how much boost could be possible(and still safe)? Looking for good pulling truck.
I'm just gathering info on this subject cause I've wanted to do a v10 turbo build for awhile and love the idea. If anyone can help with info fitment that would be highly appreciated.
This is not a build thread, just a informatin(for now
)
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From: Clayton MI
If you buy oversize pistons, you need to make sure the bore matches the pistons, otherwise, the seize in the bore, and you are just done.
Duals would actually be better, a single large turbo, mean enough to do any good on the 8.0 will also introduce a lot of turbo lag..... (time it takes for the turbo to spin up, and actually start building boost.)
Trouble is, with that garmongous motor under the hood, there just ain't a whole lotta room for anything like that, so, remote mount may be your only option.....
At one time, a few folks offered bolt on centrifugal blower setups for the 8.0..... Of course, they have long since been out of production, so, finding one would be a major stroke of luck....
The trans IS going to be an issue. The 47 is already marginal behind the 8.0, and doing forced induction is going to put you way beyond it's ability to deal with.... According to theory, all the internal parts from a 48 trans will go right inside the 47 case..... and in all reality, the 48 might just bolt right up to the 48..... but, even then, I suspect a well-tuned 8.0 running 6 pounds of boost will be able to turn it into confetti without much effort..... Going to a manual might be your best bet, if you want it to survive long......
How much boost can you run? Depends on what you do to the block and heads. All forged internals, (pistons, rods, crank), o-ring the heads/block, make sure EVERYTHING is within tolerance, and you could easily push 15 pounds of boost, or more. At least, mechanically...... Then comes the fun part.... Tuning. Going to need larger injectors, a 3-bar map sensor, a meaner fuel pump, and then tune the system to run properly. Unfortunately, dodge wasn't bright enough to include a knock sensor in their electronics package.... so you will have to be REALLY conservative on the initial tune, and then go from there. (wide band O2 sensor is going to be required as well.....) Likely, going to some variety of aftermarket electronics might be cheaper/easier in the long run. Then you can just tune with your laptop. Some systems allow you to tune on the fly...... (even while the engine is running.....) Of course, running double digit boost numbers is REALLY going to take a toll on your trans.
Stock, the 8.0 is 450 lbs/ft. With forced induction, you will easily be able to double that..... and then some. Expect to start replacing parts in the drive line...... t-case, axles, etc......
Duals would actually be better, a single large turbo, mean enough to do any good on the 8.0 will also introduce a lot of turbo lag..... (time it takes for the turbo to spin up, and actually start building boost.)
Trouble is, with that garmongous motor under the hood, there just ain't a whole lotta room for anything like that, so, remote mount may be your only option.....
At one time, a few folks offered bolt on centrifugal blower setups for the 8.0..... Of course, they have long since been out of production, so, finding one would be a major stroke of luck....
The trans IS going to be an issue. The 47 is already marginal behind the 8.0, and doing forced induction is going to put you way beyond it's ability to deal with.... According to theory, all the internal parts from a 48 trans will go right inside the 47 case..... and in all reality, the 48 might just bolt right up to the 48..... but, even then, I suspect a well-tuned 8.0 running 6 pounds of boost will be able to turn it into confetti without much effort..... Going to a manual might be your best bet, if you want it to survive long......
How much boost can you run? Depends on what you do to the block and heads. All forged internals, (pistons, rods, crank), o-ring the heads/block, make sure EVERYTHING is within tolerance, and you could easily push 15 pounds of boost, or more. At least, mechanically...... Then comes the fun part.... Tuning. Going to need larger injectors, a 3-bar map sensor, a meaner fuel pump, and then tune the system to run properly. Unfortunately, dodge wasn't bright enough to include a knock sensor in their electronics package.... so you will have to be REALLY conservative on the initial tune, and then go from there. (wide band O2 sensor is going to be required as well.....) Likely, going to some variety of aftermarket electronics might be cheaper/easier in the long run. Then you can just tune with your laptop. Some systems allow you to tune on the fly...... (even while the engine is running.....) Of course, running double digit boost numbers is REALLY going to take a toll on your trans.
Stock, the 8.0 is 450 lbs/ft. With forced induction, you will easily be able to double that..... and then some. Expect to start replacing parts in the drive line...... t-case, axles, etc......
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Ok, so starting out, I want to get the internals strait.
1. Is it true the 8.0 shares the same pistons with the 5.9?
2. Are the rods already forged from factory?
3. How does the stock crank look material wise? How critical is a forged crank for doing forced induction? Usually cranks are pretty stout, but is it that weak when running boost?
And on the oversized pistons just want to clarify. When installing new pistons is it considered common practice to always bore oversized, or can you get away by honing and doing same size pistons and rings? That's where I'm confused. I've worked a lot with small engines and it is usually if you do a rebuild, you bore oversized unless it's not that bad in the cylinder.
1. Is it true the 8.0 shares the same pistons with the 5.9?
2. Are the rods already forged from factory?
3. How does the stock crank look material wise? How critical is a forged crank for doing forced induction? Usually cranks are pretty stout, but is it that weak when running boost?
And on the oversized pistons just want to clarify. When installing new pistons is it considered common practice to always bore oversized, or can you get away by honing and doing same size pistons and rings? That's where I'm confused. I've worked a lot with small engines and it is usually if you do a rebuild, you bore oversized unless it's not that bad in the cylinder.
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From: Clayton MI
Whether you need to bore the cylinders or not depends on the condition of the cylinders. if they are still within spec for out-of-round, and taper, then yes, you can just hone them, and install stock size pistons.
The pistons are not the same. Ring grooves are different sizes....... I can't find any specs on wrist pin size, or location though.... Might chat with someone like Hughes on that.... they would prolly be able to help ya.
Crank is nodular iron, should be able to take some decent boost. Connecting rods are indeed forged.
Biggest problem is, not many folks made performance parts for these engines, and since they stopped installing them in 03, what support there was, has pretty much dried up. You can still find things like headers, a tiny selection of cams, etc...... but, finding a list of parts that would be a direct swap from the 5.9 would likely make life much easier. (and cheaper......) I was considering doing 1.7 roller rockers...... I already have headers...... just for a bit more ooomph...... but, not in the budget at the moment.
The pistons are not the same. Ring grooves are different sizes....... I can't find any specs on wrist pin size, or location though.... Might chat with someone like Hughes on that.... they would prolly be able to help ya.
Crank is nodular iron, should be able to take some decent boost. Connecting rods are indeed forged.
Biggest problem is, not many folks made performance parts for these engines, and since they stopped installing them in 03, what support there was, has pretty much dried up. You can still find things like headers, a tiny selection of cams, etc...... but, finding a list of parts that would be a direct swap from the 5.9 would likely make life much easier. (and cheaper......) I was considering doing 1.7 roller rockers...... I already have headers...... just for a bit more ooomph...... but, not in the budget at the moment.
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Whether you need to bore the cylinders or not depends on the condition of the cylinders. if they are still within spec for out-of-round, and taper, then yes, you can just hone them, and install stock size pistons.
The pistons are not the same. Ring grooves are different sizes....... I can't find any specs on wrist pin size, or location though.... Might chat with someone like Hughes on that.... they would prolly be able to help ya.
Crank is nodular iron, should be able to take some decent boost. Connecting rods are indeed forged.
Biggest problem is, not many folks made performance parts for these engines, and since they stopped installing them in 03, what support there was, has pretty much dried up. You can still find things like headers, a tiny selection of cams, etc...... but, finding a list of parts that would be a direct swap from the 5.9 would likely make life much easier. (and cheaper......) I was considering doing 1.7 roller rockers...... I already have headers...... just for a bit more ooomph...... but, not in the budget at the moment.
The pistons are not the same. Ring grooves are different sizes....... I can't find any specs on wrist pin size, or location though.... Might chat with someone like Hughes on that.... they would prolly be able to help ya.
Crank is nodular iron, should be able to take some decent boost. Connecting rods are indeed forged.
Biggest problem is, not many folks made performance parts for these engines, and since they stopped installing them in 03, what support there was, has pretty much dried up. You can still find things like headers, a tiny selection of cams, etc...... but, finding a list of parts that would be a direct swap from the 5.9 would likely make life much easier. (and cheaper......) I was considering doing 1.7 roller rockers...... I already have headers...... just for a bit more ooomph...... but, not in the budget at the moment.
Yeah, I wished I could find some aftermarket support for the v10s. Such a great engine that was overlooked for its whole life.
Anyway, I did a little more looking on pistons, and my plan is to swap some in that are made for a 360. I will be chatting to Hughes soon about the postition of the wrist pin and such, but from what I see online, the wrist pin, ring grooves, and bore all look to be the same. Sample these: (not forged but the same type from each motor)
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-s3237hc-020/overview/make/dodge
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-s3222hc-020/overview/make/dodge
Thedifferent part numbers lead me to believe there is some difference in wrist pin location, but I'll get to the bottom of that soon.
So what I'm really looking at on the internals side is that the stock rods and crank are ok, and pistons are what need to be u graded, along with either a new cam or possibly a custom regrind. For the rotating assemblies at least. Oringing the heads and block.
What would we be looking at as far as valve train? A lot depending on the type of cam, and clearance, but it is my understanding that we want to shove as much air into the beast as possible. Upgrading to roller rockers, 1.6, or 1.7 depedant on available space(again cam specs), would do some good im guessing. Valve springs? Not too familiar with what's needed there. Stock or upgrade?
What else would there to be done other than this type of stuff? I know compression ratios are important. Stock is 8.4:1. Good number around 9.5:1 or where to shoot for?
Very new to the more technical side of things and what's best for what setup. Just wanting to lean and gain some knolege! Thanks.
Anyway, I did a little more looking on pistons, and my plan is to swap some in that are made for a 360. I will be chatting to Hughes soon about the postition of the wrist pin and such, but from what I see online, the wrist pin, ring grooves, and bore all look to be the same. Sample these: (not forged but the same type from each motor)
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-s3237hc-020/overview/make/dodge
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-s3222hc-020/overview/make/dodge
Thedifferent part numbers lead me to believe there is some difference in wrist pin location, but I'll get to the bottom of that soon.
So what I'm really looking at on the internals side is that the stock rods and crank are ok, and pistons are what need to be u graded, along with either a new cam or possibly a custom regrind. For the rotating assemblies at least. Oringing the heads and block.
What would we be looking at as far as valve train? A lot depending on the type of cam, and clearance, but it is my understanding that we want to shove as much air into the beast as possible. Upgrading to roller rockers, 1.6, or 1.7 depedant on available space(again cam specs), would do some good im guessing. Valve springs? Not too familiar with what's needed there. Stock or upgrade?
What else would there to be done other than this type of stuff? I know compression ratios are important. Stock is 8.4:1. Good number around 9.5:1 or where to shoot for?
Very new to the more technical side of things and what's best for what setup. Just wanting to lean and gain some knolege! Thanks.
Last edited by CJSuhr; Jan 27, 2018 at 09:18 PM.
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From: Clayton MI
I would stick around 9 to 1 or so... Not like you are going to have a shortage of power here...... For rockers, and the rest of the valve train, get parts matched to whatever cam you go with. For boost applications, a good "RV" cam would work just fine, and be significantly cheaper than a custom grind. Unless you want to spend some serious money on the heads, just stick with stock valve size.
Also remember, the v-10 redlines at what? 4500 RPM? If you spend money on balancing, you can probably push past that.....
Also remember, the v-10 redlines at what? 4500 RPM? If you spend money on balancing, you can probably push past that.....
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If you are looking for pistons i wouldn't go to Hughes. Try wiseco, They may have something to suit your needs.
http://www.wiseco.com/
http://www.wiseco.com/
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From: Omaha NE
If you are looking for pistons i wouldn't go to Hughes. Try wiseco, They may have something to suit your needs.
http://www.wiseco.com/
http://www.wiseco.com/
That's actually where I started out, just haven't gotten around to contacting them yet. I know they make some good pistons, especially if your on a budget too. Just gotta give them a call or something. Hoping that either Hughes or wiseco will tell me that I'm able to put 360 piston in, cause that will make it a lot cheaper.
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That's actually where I started out, just haven't gotten around to contacting them yet. I know they make some good pistons, especially if your on a budget too. Just gotta give them a call or something. Hoping that either Hughes or wiseco will tell me that I'm able to put 360 piston in, cause that will make it a lot cheaper.
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I have yet to call weisco, but here's wat I got from Hughes:
"Pistons for the V10, can be made . piston pin size .984 that is SB standard size abut can be made in .927. What would vary would be compression height. Some 5.9 shared the same compression height and had same pin offset. Since we have not built a V10 short block we are not going to be much help. Go to the salvage yard get a piston and start measuring."
I was already thinking they weren't gonna be of much help as they don't deal with the v10 really at all, but im going to talk to wiesco, and maybe sealed power as they make pistons for both the 5.9 and v10.
"Pistons for the V10, can be made . piston pin size .984 that is SB standard size abut can be made in .927. What would vary would be compression height. Some 5.9 shared the same compression height and had same pin offset. Since we have not built a V10 short block we are not going to be much help. Go to the salvage yard get a piston and start measuring."
I was already thinking they weren't gonna be of much help as they don't deal with the v10 really at all, but im going to talk to wiesco, and maybe sealed power as they make pistons for both the 5.9 and v10.