*Post Header Install/Symptoms* (Fresh Start)
#11
01-28-2008, 10:53 PM
RE: *Post Header Install/Symptoms* (Fresh Start)
If it were me i'd look at the o2's. As I recall before, You had teh headers put on with the cat in the wrong spot. He put it in that spot cuz the o2 sensor wouldnt reach. I remember Silver_Dodge (i believe??) saying not to cut the o2 sensor wire as it could give a false reading. When your mechanic put the cat back in, you told him to splice the wires. If it is giving you a false reading, that could be while your stumbling after you start driving your truck. You come out of open loop (where you start to drive.... truck is still cold and does not take data from the o2 sensors) and when you transition into closed loop, that is when you have problems. If I were in your spot, I'd go to "thefastman.com" and pick up an o2 sim just for the heck of it. Even if it is not your problem, it would probably be better off than the readings your getting from your cat now as it is. Just a thought.
Good luck!,
pcfixerpro
- - ah shoot... dsertdog56 beat me to the o2 sensor deal... oh well
Good luck!,
pcfixerpro
- - ah shoot... dsertdog56 beat me to the o2 sensor deal... oh well
#12
01-28-2008, 11:05 PM
Record Breaker
#13
01-28-2008, 11:13 PM
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,865
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: *Post Header Install/Symptoms* (Fresh Start)
Well in regards to the IAT sensor, I unplugged it because INDY said that's what he thought it was. He said unplug it and then use a torx 15 to adjust the ideler to about 1500 rpms to let it warm up, then he said adjust it back down to about 700 rpms once it was warm. I did that this morning just to get it to the shop, but it didn't obviously do anything considering I had to get it towed, but that's why I did it. I think you are on to something though. I think he may have distrubed some wiring when he was in there. It could be a barrage of things, and I do realize it's all kind of open ended. Really what I wish I could do is let you guys test drive it haha! But tomorrow when I bring it back, I'd like to steer him towards a direction. Tell him look for burnt wires, vacuum leak, 02 sensors ec. etc. I really dont him to find out its gutted though, because most guys just go off ontheir own tangents with that crap, and I dont really feel like heairng it. What I do know though is that the truck was running like **** even before he moved the cat after the y-pipe, so I dont know if its the cat either considering it was stumbling with the cat in both places. Thank you guys so far though, this is all very useful for me!
#14
01-28-2008, 11:13 PM
Grand Champion
RE: *Post Header Install/Symptoms* (Fresh Start)
Good point about the o2 sensor. Given the way the mechanic did someof the stuff he did on the install, it would be no wonder if he didn't mess that up too (mix up the wires, or make poor splices or something). Also, check the routing of all wires and vacuumto make sure they are not too close to the heat of those headers. SInce they are longtubes, they are a tight fit, and once they get warmed up, could be causing some heat soak issue into your electrical. Then it would go away after things cool.
Another thing about the coolant, I think desertdog hit on something else. Didn't you post that the guy twisted off your studs when installing the headers? Maybe he backed them out just enough. Did you have him fix that by the way?
Another thing about the coolant, I think desertdog hit on something else. Didn't you post that the guy twisted off your studs when installing the headers? Maybe he backed them out just enough. Did you have him fix that by the way?
#15
01-28-2008, 11:19 PM
RE: *Post Header Install/Symptoms* (Fresh Start)
"Zddp8868, I'm not going to waiste my time having a debate with you because your just being a dink. I run into this all the time. There is a differance between having an educational fun debate, and then theres the people who come on to say one person is wrong and retarded, and needs to have a self evaulation. That just brings it to the next level that I'm not going to go to. We're talking about trucks here, nothing more, nothing less, so once again, the 18 year old has to draw the line for the adults and say it's a bit childish to be bring in my personally into an "exhaust debate"...so thanks for shorting a fun debate... "
well since the other forum is now locked i just wanted to say that i will no longer be attempting to help you or your poor truck after that episode. good luck with all of your problems.
well since the other forum is now locked i just wanted to say that i will no longer be attempting to help you or your poor truck after that episode. good luck with all of your problems.
#16
01-28-2008, 11:28 PM
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,865
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: *Post Header Install/Symptoms* (Fresh Start)
Ya know what Silver, I really would not be suprised if he did some faulty wiring with that cat. He told me when he did the job he did have some bolts that snapped off on him, however, he did say he was able to get them all out. Either way, he just did a very poor job on this truck. He let it psyche him out too much, which is stupid because he has 5 guys working under him, so he wasn't all by himself by any means. But you think a poorly wired 02 sensor could cause this? Also, let the mechanic know to check the wires going into the vacuum as well? Thank you silver for your input, and thanks to all of you.
Zddp, your input is welcome, and I'd like to have it. But if you arent interested in helping me, I respect that. I dont want to discourage your help, but on the flipside, I just want to make sure anyone helping is genuine about it, that's all.
Zddp, your input is welcome, and I'd like to have it. But if you arent interested in helping me, I respect that. I dont want to discourage your help, but on the flipside, I just want to make sure anyone helping is genuine about it, that's all.
#17
01-28-2008, 11:43 PM
RE: *Post Header Install/Symptoms* (Fresh Start)
Ill try to refrain from petty bickering and just answer the questions at hand, alright buddy [sm=chairshot.gif]. Ill be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem like I like to advocate.
ORIGINAL: 20DodgeNeon00
Tomorrow the truck goes back to the mechanics. Keep in mind, this is a different mechanic that the one who put the headers in. They will reassess the truck. They also will be fixing the problem on their tab since they charged me for an illadvised quote. Also, if anybody wants to answer me question and not ridicule my termanology, can anybody please explain where air in the coolant system or low coolant may have come from during a header job? Also, what kind of damage can be done with air in the coolant etc. etc. etc...Thank You.
Tomorrow the truck goes back to the mechanics. Keep in mind, this is a different mechanic that the one who put the headers in. They will reassess the truck. They also will be fixing the problem on their tab since they charged me for an illadvised quote. Also, if anybody wants to answer me question and not ridicule my termanology, can anybody please explain where air in the coolant system or low coolant may have come from during a header job? Also, what kind of damage can be done with air in the coolant etc. etc. etc...Thank You.
#18
01-28-2008, 11:48 PM
RE: *Post Header Install/Symptoms* (Fresh Start)
ORIGINAL: 20DodgeNeon00
Ok, I'll bring it up to full update mode. 2 weeks ago, got the truck back with the headers. Everything seemed to be fine. The next day I started it up and took it out on the rode. Then suddenly it shut off in the middle of the road and the wheel locked. So I started it back up and revved it up high, and then it pulled itself out of it. So I just kind of ignored it. Then 2 days later, the truck started ideling rough in the morning. It would drop down to like 200 rpms, and then shoot back up to 700 rpms. So that was a little sketchy. Then it would continue to shut off on me everytime I'df first get on the road, but it would always pull itself out of it after it would warm up more. Then I brought the truck back to the mechanic a full week later after the header job. I had him reposition the cat after the y-pipe. When I picked the truck up, the truck seemed to be running fine again. Then about 2 days after I picked it up, the truck started ideling rough again, really *******, but then it'd pull itself out of it like usual. Then about 3 days ago, I started it up and took it out onto the street. It started to die on me again, so I pulled off the side of the road. This time though, it wouldn't snap out of it. I'd try to get it on the road but it was just popping everywhere, and the truck would jump from 1500 rpms down to 500 rpms etc. etc. Today I tried to take it back out onto the street and it was just barely moving, so I pulled off the side of the road and had it towed to my nearest mechanic. I told him it had been running rough since the headers. They called me back and said it needed a complete tune-up. I questioned that. I told him that seemed a little odd because the truck never ran like this before, I'm pretty sure a truck wouldnt just start running like **** because it needed a tuneup that bad. But they were confident, and so I said OK. Well, I left the mechanics and within 5 minutes it started ideling really low, the lights on the gauge cluster began dimming badly, and the truck would just really start stuttering and I barely made it home. I know it has to be a senser, as we discussed before. I did disconnect the IAT( Forgive me if I misspelled it)...and I manually adjusted the ideler with the torx, and it still dogged on me. Any ideas guys?
Ok, I'll bring it up to full update mode. 2 weeks ago, got the truck back with the headers. Everything seemed to be fine. The next day I started it up and took it out on the rode. Then suddenly it shut off in the middle of the road and the wheel locked. So I started it back up and revved it up high, and then it pulled itself out of it. So I just kind of ignored it. Then 2 days later, the truck started ideling rough in the morning. It would drop down to like 200 rpms, and then shoot back up to 700 rpms. So that was a little sketchy. Then it would continue to shut off on me everytime I'df first get on the road, but it would always pull itself out of it after it would warm up more. Then I brought the truck back to the mechanic a full week later after the header job. I had him reposition the cat after the y-pipe. When I picked the truck up, the truck seemed to be running fine again. Then about 2 days after I picked it up, the truck started ideling rough again, really *******, but then it'd pull itself out of it like usual. Then about 3 days ago, I started it up and took it out onto the street. It started to die on me again, so I pulled off the side of the road. This time though, it wouldn't snap out of it. I'd try to get it on the road but it was just popping everywhere, and the truck would jump from 1500 rpms down to 500 rpms etc. etc. Today I tried to take it back out onto the street and it was just barely moving, so I pulled off the side of the road and had it towed to my nearest mechanic. I told him it had been running rough since the headers. They called me back and said it needed a complete tune-up. I questioned that. I told him that seemed a little odd because the truck never ran like this before, I'm pretty sure a truck wouldnt just start running like **** because it needed a tuneup that bad. But they were confident, and so I said OK. Well, I left the mechanics and within 5 minutes it started ideling really low, the lights on the gauge cluster began dimming badly, and the truck would just really start stuttering and I barely made it home. I know it has to be a senser, as we discussed before. I did disconnect the IAT( Forgive me if I misspelled it)...and I manually adjusted the ideler with the torx, and it still dogged on me. Any ideas guys?
Let me ask this...when you unplugged the IAC did you notice a diffrence with it ******* on you or did it still dog EXACTLY the same (or very very similarly)?
ORIGINAL: dsertdog56
Low coolant from a header job...if the heads are similar to the old 360s, your end studs (and I believe they are studs) go into the water jacket in the head. So if the studs needed to be removed to install your headers...you'll lose coolant. Some installers put a touch of silicone on the replacement bolts to make sure theyseal.
Air in the coolant creates hot spots...however it should all bleed out over time. Some folks suggest parking on a hill nose up with the cap off and letting the motor run for a bit. This supposedly runs all the air into the radiator where it will bleed off through the filler. Sounds a bit far fetched to me, but folks swear by it. It really should bleed off naturally from driving it.
Low coolant from a header job...if the heads are similar to the old 360s, your end studs (and I believe they are studs) go into the water jacket in the head. So if the studs needed to be removed to install your headers...you'll lose coolant. Some installers put a touch of silicone on the replacement bolts to make sure theyseal.
Air in the coolant creates hot spots...however it should all bleed out over time. Some folks suggest parking on a hill nose up with the cap off and letting the motor run for a bit. This supposedly runs all the air into the radiator where it will bleed off through the filler. Sounds a bit far fetched to me, but folks swear by it. It really should bleed off naturally from driving it.
Thats what Im trying to remember, I cant recall if some of the bolts had water behind them or not. I seem to recall some did.
ORIGINAL: 20DodgeNeon00
That is good news in that case though. I'm just confused what would case this truck to run like this after the header job? I'm also confused why the truck ran great at first, and slowly over time just got worse and worse. What could have possibly happened during that job that would do this. If it's a sensor, why would it suddenly go after the headers were put in? It seems all odd. And it's not because the truck is loosing too much air, I mean the truck responded overall well to the headers, I even did those 0-60 videos the first couple nights I had the truck, and it seemed fine. Could it be the 02 sensor? The cat is gutted and the cat has been moved a couple of times now. It has to be some kind of sensor messing with the engine. The truck idels OK, but once you start hitting the gas, thats when it starts freaking out and just like pumping sporadically.
That is good news in that case though. I'm just confused what would case this truck to run like this after the header job? I'm also confused why the truck ran great at first, and slowly over time just got worse and worse. What could have possibly happened during that job that would do this. If it's a sensor, why would it suddenly go after the headers were put in? It seems all odd. And it's not because the truck is loosing too much air, I mean the truck responded overall well to the headers, I even did those 0-60 videos the first couple nights I had the truck, and it seemed fine. Could it be the 02 sensor? The cat is gutted and the cat has been moved a couple of times now. It has to be some kind of sensor messing with the engine. The truck idels OK, but once you start hitting the gas, thats when it starts freaking out and just like pumping sporadically.
ORIGINAL: 20DodgeNeon00
Hmm...that sounds good too. Because the truck will all really dim when it starts to shut off. If the alternator was bad though, would it affect start-ups? The truck always starts right up like it did before. But once it starts ideling 5 minutes or so, then it starts to stumble a little bit. Then once you apply gas to the truck when its in drive, it just keeps hopping and hesitating. It will start to move, and then the power is suddenly sucked away, causing the truck to just pulsate. If you were driving behind me it would look like I was hitting the brakes and hitting the gas over and over again, it will move then stop, move a little bit, and then cut out power.
ORIGINAL: padodgeram
Start with the simple stuff ... batt terminal clean ? , the battery mite be going bad , alt , there a ground wire missing or not grounded.. sounds more like something is getting shorted out and throws the truck into fits....
Start with the simple stuff ... batt terminal clean ? , the battery mite be going bad , alt , there a ground wire missing or not grounded.. sounds more like something is getting shorted out and throws the truck into fits....
ORIGINAL: dsertdog56
Diagnosing over the internet is dicey at best...and I read your last post several times before posting this. I'm abit confused as to why you disconnected the IAT. You should have gotten a CEL if you removed the harness, and you robbed the computer of a vital sensor.
I hope I'm not being redundant here, since I didn't read the original posting that was locked. Since you suspect it's a sensor, and before you throw anymore money into the truck, I would have your mechanic carefully run voltage tests and current testson your O2 sensors and IAT. Since you stated that the truck runs better when warmed up, that tells me that the PCM is in open loop. I'm hesitant to say it's a sensor, because the PCM doesn't "use" them in open loop. I intentionally oversimplified this, because the O2 sensors preheat themselves.
I would also check for any melted wires or vacumn tube from the engine area that might have contacted a hot exhaust or may have been crimped or cracked during installation. Or they were replaced in the wong ports.This could cause an issue when the engine is cold.There's an amazing amount of that stuff back there, especially on a 4x4, because of the CAD unit on your front axle.
I would check the battery too, but you say the engine restarts...well it might but Battery performance is crucial in a PCM equipped motor, and it must be fully charged. Ditto on the ground wires!
EDIT: I just read where you gutted your cat. Should only be one on a 2000 and up? That really messes with the O2 readings. But again shouldn't matter when the engine is cold, unless the sensors were miswired. When the PCM transitions fromopen to closed loop everything should be heated to the proper temp and and ready to go.
Diagnosing over the internet is dicey at best...and I read your last post several times before posting this. I'm abit confused as to why you disconnected the IAT. You should have gotten a CEL if you removed the harness, and you robbed the computer of a vital sensor.
I hope I'm not being redundant here, since I didn't read the original posting that was locked. Since you suspect it's a sensor, and before you throw anymore money into the truck, I would have your mechanic carefully run voltage tests and current testson your O2 sensors and IAT. Since you stated that the truck runs better when warmed up, that tells me that the PCM is in open loop. I'm hesitant to say it's a sensor, because the PCM doesn't "use" them in open loop. I intentionally oversimplified this, because the O2 sensors preheat themselves.
I would also check for any melted wires or vacumn tube from the engine area that might have contacted a hot exhaust or may have been crimped or cracked during installation. Or they were replaced in the wong ports.This could cause an issue when the engine is cold.There's an amazing amount of that stuff back there, especially on a 4x4, because of the CAD unit on your front axle.
I would check the battery too, but you say the engine restarts...well it might but Battery performance is crucial in a PCM equipped motor, and it must be fully charged. Ditto on the ground wires!
EDIT: I just read where you gutted your cat. Should only be one on a 2000 and up? That really messes with the O2 readings. But again shouldn't matter when the engine is cold, unless the sensors were miswired. When the PCM transitions fromopen to closed loop everything should be heated to the proper temp and and ready to go.
ORIGINAL: dsertdog56
Sorry to whack ya a bit on this but you should only use the "torx" mod to get you home if the IAT fails. The torx is there to adjust the "stop point" of the butterflys, not open them for setting an idle.
Sorry to whack ya a bit on this but you should only use the "torx" mod to get you home if the IAT fails. The torx is there to adjust the "stop point" of the butterflys, not open them for setting an idle.
Sorry it didnt work out for you in the end though.
ORIGINAL: Silver_Dodge
Good point about the o2 sensor. Given the way the mechanic did someof the stuff he did on the install, it would be no wonder if he didn't mess that up too (mix up the wires, or make poor splices or something). Also, check the routing of all wires and vacuumto make sure they are not too close to the heat of those headers. SInce they are longtubes, they are a tight fit, and once they get warmed up, could be causing some heat soak issue into your electrical. Then it would go away after things cool.
Another thing about the coolant, I think desertdog hit on something else. Didn't you post that the guy twisted off your studs when installing the headers? Maybe he backed them out just enough. Did you have him fix that by the way?
Good point about the o2 sensor. Given the way the mechanic did someof the stuff he did on the install, it would be no wonder if he didn't mess that up too (mix up the wires, or make poor splices or something). Also, check the routing of all wires and vacuumto make sure they are not too close to the heat of those headers. SInce they are longtubes, they are a tight fit, and once they get warmed up, could be causing some heat soak issue into your electrical. Then it would go away after things cool.
Another thing about the coolant, I think desertdog hit on something else. Didn't you post that the guy twisted off your studs when installing the headers? Maybe he backed them out just enough. Did you have him fix that by the way?
While on the topic of 02 sensors and all that jazz, just want to make sure he placed it properly. Did he place the 02 sensor @3" or more behind the cat, at a right angle with the sensor butt facing upwards?
#19
01-29-2008, 02:03 AM
RE: *Post Header Install/Symptoms* (Fresh Start)
If you think it is a faultyO2 sensor unplug it. The PCM wil usea default sensor value. I cant remember if the 2001 have a seperate O2 heater fuse in the PDC (underhood fuse box) but that can cause an overly rich condition if the engine idles for a few minutes if the fuse is blown.
I think you might have an intermittantfuel pump issue.
Assuming there are no codes the first thing I would do if I was working on your truck is install a fuel pressure test guage and go for a road test to see if the presure drops when it acts up.
Don't expect the shop to work on your truck for free now. You could ask them to reinstall all your old tune up parts though...
Good luck neon
I think you might have an intermittantfuel pump issue.
Assuming there are no codes the first thing I would do if I was working on your truck is install a fuel pressure test guage and go for a road test to see if the presure drops when it acts up.
Don't expect the shop to work on your truck for free now. You could ask them to reinstall all your old tune up parts though...
Good luck neon
#20
01-29-2008, 02:19 AM
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Healdsburg, California
Posts: 626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: *Post Header Install/Symptoms* (Fresh Start)
As said above, man, it really sounds like something electrical to me. But from what you describe, it seems like it starts to happen after it warms up for a few minutes? If something was arcing or shorting, it would do it as soon as you started it. What about something like a cam or crank sensor going? maybe the PCM is throwing the timing out of whack when it warms a little? Does it backfire when its running ****ty? Thats the stuff I can think of.... I don't know if any of it will be any help, but others will chime in on what I've said. Good luck man, I like that truck!
