Shudder
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Joined: Jan 2011
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From: Texas
Hey Pat; here is a quick update; as far as transmission is concerned; I talked to SunCoast.. and told me they would have a few years ago (no longer mess with the older gassers) only put in a TC into the truck; being i have the tag and not rebuild the entire transmission; but I explained the off idle shudder; his first thought was mounts. One mounts; make sure there are no missfires.. and then the next step would be the TC it self; being that my stall speed in Reverse was 2K.. I'm still researching if that is with in range or not. I've always had the TC in the back of my mind but again several people (shops told me it was not) I wish i lived closer to my Wife's uncle; he's over 150 miles away.. Damn I might just have to take a trip over to see him and buy some beer. LOL
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Captain
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 683
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From: East Coast
Normal stall speeds are 1800-2300 rpm..Test w/WOT and it takes 4-10 seconds to reach max rpm..If ss exceeds 2500 rpm the trans clutch slipping..250-350 rpm below normal indicates the converter overrunning clutch is slipping..A whining noise during the test is normal and caused by fluild flow..These #'s are for mine, yours might be different..Also this is for the drive gear..not sure if you need to do the R gear..Anyways, was this the same shop that said your mounts were ok 
Looks like any day now I'll gut or remove the converter drainback valve..A good bud made the reccomendation which was a good idea and should only improve fluid flow! Thanks M!
Looks like any day now I'll gut or remove the converter drainback valve..A good bud made the reccomendation which was a good idea and should only improve fluid flow! Thanks M!
All Star
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 797
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From: fargo, n.d
Similarities to your problem. Shudder/shake or whatever is worst after sitting overnite. If I put it in gear and take off it run smooth, if I just idle off in gear or with foot lightly on brake, you can watch the hood bouncing up and down. As it warms up it gets better and can hardly notice it at operating temp. So if let it rough idle for a few minutes first, then it's not so bad. I wouldn't describe the shudder I feel like going over wash boards. don't have any symptoms at the 45 mph zone. Mechanics I've talked to so far think it's from poor seat or burnt valve on #8 cylinder. Compression is 10 to 15 psi lower than other cylinders at 165 last time i checked. All plugs out, air filter off, plates wide open , fuel relay pulled, unhook coil and 3 cranks per FSM. Went up 15 psi wet. Also know valve guides are worn by using vacuum gauge. Uses approx 1 qt oil every 600 to 700 miles. Other than this one bloody symptom it runs better than it did 50,000 miles ago.
Last edited by ReadRam; Sep 26, 2012 at 01:46 AM.
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Captain
Joined: Jun 2012
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From: East Coast
Similarities to your problem. Shudder/shake or whatever is worst after sitting overnite. If I put it in gear and take off it run smooth, if I just idle off in gear or with foot lightly on brake, you can watch the hood bouncing up and down. As it warms up it gets better and can hardly notice it at operating temp. So if let it rough idle for a few minutes first, then it's not so bad. I wouldn't describe the shudder I feel like going over wash boards. don't have any symptoms at the 45 mph zone. Mechanics I've talked to so far think it's from poor seat or burnt valve on #8 cylinder. Compression is 10 to 15 psi lower than other cylinders at 165 last time i checked. All plugs out, air filter off, plates wide open , fuel relay pulled, unhook coil and 3 cranks per FSM. Went up 15 psi wet. Also know valve guides are worn by using vacuum gauge. Uses approx 1 qt oil every 600 to 700 miles. Other than this one bloody symptom it runs better than it did 50,000 miles ago.
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Joined: Jul 2010
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From: fargo, n.d
The first thing was making sure all plugs were good and gapped right and all wires were routed and fitting, I had replaced both a couple weeks before this all suddenly started. Last march truck was running great so didn't mind spending 750.. to get LSD clutch packs replaced etc. When I picked it up I didn't get two blocks and got cel multi misfires that smoothed out after it warmed up. Ok first thing was replaced the cat and front (denso) 02. Was better but not it. Never replaced them after plenum gasket repair. I know,bad!
Replaced the cap (brass) and rotor and coil. Ran pretty good except when starting after sitting, or when at idle speed. When take foot off brake the engine would bounce until gave it some throttle then would run smooth.
Ok, finally got code MAP sensor high input, 11.2 and po108. So new MAP and cleaned throttle body and IAC. Seemed better, so replaced IAC with dealer part.
Seafoamed the snot out of it, HeyYou suggested. Ordered some Cermet, used it 40,000 mi ago with great results on power and increased compression. Shudder/up and down shake was barely noticeable until I ran it hard couple weeks ago. Wot it a few times and the shake came back at rolling to stop or slow start as lift foot from brake to pedal, and was worse after sitting overnite again.
Oh forgot replaced harmonic balancer, water pump, timing chain and cover. Thought for sure this has to be it. Rubber was coming out bad on HB. Didn't make that much difference. Seems like something is out of balance or out of sync but is temperature related. Idk!
Been trying Zman posted he ran bunch if techron and seafoamed for a month, so last week I've been only filling up halfways and putting big bottle of techron plus maybe6 bottles so far and seafoamed thru BB prob 4 times last couple weeks and also found defective coil, replaced on warranty. Once it's warmed up can hardly tell it's running and feels real nimble right now. Still few minutes rough idle when it's cold and still little bounce in the engine , like rolling up to stop lights. Even tried longer plug wire on #8 as the mopar set is so short, you have to stretch over v cover. That's my story and i'm sticking to it!
Replaced the cap (brass) and rotor and coil. Ran pretty good except when starting after sitting, or when at idle speed. When take foot off brake the engine would bounce until gave it some throttle then would run smooth.
Ok, finally got code MAP sensor high input, 11.2 and po108. So new MAP and cleaned throttle body and IAC. Seemed better, so replaced IAC with dealer part.
Seafoamed the snot out of it, HeyYou suggested. Ordered some Cermet, used it 40,000 mi ago with great results on power and increased compression. Shudder/up and down shake was barely noticeable until I ran it hard couple weeks ago. Wot it a few times and the shake came back at rolling to stop or slow start as lift foot from brake to pedal, and was worse after sitting overnite again.
Oh forgot replaced harmonic balancer, water pump, timing chain and cover. Thought for sure this has to be it. Rubber was coming out bad on HB. Didn't make that much difference. Seems like something is out of balance or out of sync but is temperature related. Idk!
Been trying Zman posted he ran bunch if techron and seafoamed for a month, so last week I've been only filling up halfways and putting big bottle of techron plus maybe6 bottles so far and seafoamed thru BB prob 4 times last couple weeks and also found defective coil, replaced on warranty. Once it's warmed up can hardly tell it's running and feels real nimble right now. Still few minutes rough idle when it's cold and still little bounce in the engine , like rolling up to stop lights. Even tried longer plug wire on #8 as the mopar set is so short, you have to stretch over v cover. That's my story and i'm sticking to it!
Last edited by ReadRam; Sep 27, 2012 at 01:13 AM.
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Joined: Jan 2011
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From: Texas
Interesting that after it warms up it goes away.. Our's do not.. stays constant no matter what temp..
Now sometimes mine is hardly noticible.. but it's still there.. while other times is hard core.. I have not been able to accurately pin point/determine the major differences like temp related or anything like that.. because it can vary.. but mainly is constant no matter what.. off idle.
Now sometimes mine is hardly noticible.. but it's still there.. while other times is hard core.. I have not been able to accurately pin point/determine the major differences like temp related or anything like that.. because it can vary.. but mainly is constant no matter what.. off idle.
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 797
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From: fargo, n.d
Been doing massive doses of techron plus in the tank, 15 to 20 gal per large bottle. Run it down to 1/8 of tank and repeated about six times. Also ran about 4 cans of seafoam through BB line, 1/3 of can each time. Symptoms are minimal as of right now. Think I'm feeling slight miss on #8 , that is more noticeable on cold start. Don't know why it it's less noticeable when warm. Biggest difference in overall driveability was replacing defective coil.
Besides the shudder, shake, bouncy at rolling off idle, was bad valve train clatter last few weeks. Was starting to think bad plenum gasket again. No ping at all and feels way more responsive
with new coil.... I don't know if were describing the same kind of "shudder" or if it's similar problem happening time wise.
I use my ram everyday for my business and business is good, which makes it hard to schedule time to bring to a shop for good diagnosis. I think I'm OCD about my truck!
Got seafoam soaking again, time to go run her. I know pouring stuff from bottle won't fix mechanical problems, But could be lot carbon built up on valves because the pintle on IAC was loaded with it.
Besides the shudder, shake, bouncy at rolling off idle, was bad valve train clatter last few weeks. Was starting to think bad plenum gasket again. No ping at all and feels way more responsive
with new coil.... I don't know if were describing the same kind of "shudder" or if it's similar problem happening time wise.
I use my ram everyday for my business and business is good, which makes it hard to schedule time to bring to a shop for good diagnosis. I think I'm OCD about my truck!
Got seafoam soaking again, time to go run her. I know pouring stuff from bottle won't fix mechanical problems, But could be lot carbon built up on valves because the pintle on IAC was loaded with it.
Last edited by ReadRam; Sep 27, 2012 at 10:04 PM.
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Captain
Joined: Jun 2012
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From: East Coast
"Although the torque converter clutch is not part of the engine, it can make the car feel like the engine has a problem. The torque converter clutch is also known as a lock up converter. The lockup clutch has many purposes and is part of the transmission. A regular converter in an automatic transmission is made to slip at idle so that the car doesn’t move. As the accelerator is pressed the RPM’s raise and the torque converter will start to lockup or engage. When the converter engages the car will move. Even though the torque converter is engaged it never completely engages the way a manual transmission car clutch will. It will always slip a little, which is not very efficient. This is why a manual transmission car gets better gas mileage and has more power than an automatic transmission car. To increase power and mainly fuel mileage, a TCC is added to an automatic transmission. The torque converter clutch is an electronic clutch that will engage the engine and drivetrain 100 percent".
"The TCC is made to engage usually only in the top gear when the car is cruising, not accelerating. The lock up converter will disengage when the accelerator is pressed hard enough. Over time the clutch will wear out especially if the vehicle ever towed anything and was left in overdrive (top gear). This will wear the clutch out prematurely. If you have a tachometer you will see the RPM’s drop a few hundred when it engages. If the TCC is bad one of three things will usually happen. First, the vehicle will tend to rev up and down as it engages and disengages, not being able to keep the converter clutch locked up. Second, the converter clutch will engage randomly in gears that it shouldn’t even engage in usually. Third the clutch doesn’t want to disengage. As you slow down the vehicle won’t downshift and if you try to accelerate the RPM’s will be so low that the vehicle will have difficulty moving quickly. In extreme cases the lockup converter will try to keep the vehicle moving as you try to stop at a stop light, or will stall out and die. Many people think that this problem is coming from their engine because it causes the car to stall. The check engine light will not always show an error for the TCC. Most lockup converters are controlled by a wire or wires that plug into the transmission. It is possible on some models to simply disconnect this plug. This is not a problem and will only cause you to lose a little gas mileage. The RPM’s will run slightly higher than before but will not harm anything or be an issue".
Thought this info was interesting. As well as the link below..
http://www.4x4wire.com/dodge/tech/tc_lockup/
"The TCC is made to engage usually only in the top gear when the car is cruising, not accelerating. The lock up converter will disengage when the accelerator is pressed hard enough. Over time the clutch will wear out especially if the vehicle ever towed anything and was left in overdrive (top gear). This will wear the clutch out prematurely. If you have a tachometer you will see the RPM’s drop a few hundred when it engages. If the TCC is bad one of three things will usually happen. First, the vehicle will tend to rev up and down as it engages and disengages, not being able to keep the converter clutch locked up. Second, the converter clutch will engage randomly in gears that it shouldn’t even engage in usually. Third the clutch doesn’t want to disengage. As you slow down the vehicle won’t downshift and if you try to accelerate the RPM’s will be so low that the vehicle will have difficulty moving quickly. In extreme cases the lockup converter will try to keep the vehicle moving as you try to stop at a stop light, or will stall out and die. Many people think that this problem is coming from their engine because it causes the car to stall. The check engine light will not always show an error for the TCC. Most lockup converters are controlled by a wire or wires that plug into the transmission. It is possible on some models to simply disconnect this plug. This is not a problem and will only cause you to lose a little gas mileage. The RPM’s will run slightly higher than before but will not harm anything or be an issue".
Thought this info was interesting. As well as the link below..
http://www.4x4wire.com/dodge/tech/tc_lockup/
