HELP!!! OIL PRESSURE!! FIXED
#91
07-14-2008, 07:15 PM
#92
07-14-2008, 10:21 PM
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RE: guage problem
ok. i am very hopeful that a new pump and a cleaning of parts in the pan will fix my situation, but i just wanted to know what else could be a possibility if i do these things and it doesnt fix it. like where do i go from there?
oh and are there any other parts i should replace when doing this since im down there? or can most of it be cleaned up. like i know i need a new pump and gasket, but can i get away with cleaning the pick up tube and screen or should i replace those as well?
oh and are there any other parts i should replace when doing this since im down there? or can most of it be cleaned up. like i know i need a new pump and gasket, but can i get away with cleaning the pick up tube and screen or should i replace those as well?
#93
07-15-2008, 12:37 AM
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RE: guage problem
Just to throw my $0.02 in here on this subject, mmstar, from every thing I've read up to this point, I agree that the oil pump replacement will very likely solve your problems. I say likely because nothing is 100% sure when working on engines, it just doesn't work that way. I'd give this one a solid 95% plus, though.
Just for some info on me, I went to college for 2 1/2 years majoring in high performance automotive and racing technology @ Northwestern College in Lima OH, so I have a little more backround than some in the area of engine knowledge.
I have to point out one very important thing to you, since you're planning on dropping the pan & swapping out your oil pump. DO NOT get a high volume oil pump as a replacement for your stock one, if it is available. A high pressure one may not hurt (but don't quote me on that, not knowing if the extra pressure might affect other engine systems in the process, such as hydraulic valvetrain components, or the sensors for the computer), but a high volume oil pump may very well end up costing you your engine at some point down the road.
Think of it this way, a higher pressure pump will send oil through your engine at an increased pressure, but not an increased volume per unit of time. If you try to suck more oil out of the oil pan than the stock pump with a high volume pump, you still only have 6 quarts in your pan to feed it, and the engine isn't going to return oil to the pan any faster than it can by gravity drainback. Worst case scenario would be you pull all the oil out of your pan under hard acceleration, and starve the engine for oil. Not a pretty picture. Even without that happening, you also run the chance of having reduced drainback qualities from your cylinder heads due to sludge restricting the drainback passages, and filling your top end with oil that's gonna use any passage it can to get out.
Just for some info on me, I went to college for 2 1/2 years majoring in high performance automotive and racing technology @ Northwestern College in Lima OH, so I have a little more backround than some in the area of engine knowledge.
I have to point out one very important thing to you, since you're planning on dropping the pan & swapping out your oil pump. DO NOT get a high volume oil pump as a replacement for your stock one, if it is available. A high pressure one may not hurt (but don't quote me on that, not knowing if the extra pressure might affect other engine systems in the process, such as hydraulic valvetrain components, or the sensors for the computer), but a high volume oil pump may very well end up costing you your engine at some point down the road.
Think of it this way, a higher pressure pump will send oil through your engine at an increased pressure, but not an increased volume per unit of time. If you try to suck more oil out of the oil pan than the stock pump with a high volume pump, you still only have 6 quarts in your pan to feed it, and the engine isn't going to return oil to the pan any faster than it can by gravity drainback. Worst case scenario would be you pull all the oil out of your pan under hard acceleration, and starve the engine for oil. Not a pretty picture. Even without that happening, you also run the chance of having reduced drainback qualities from your cylinder heads due to sludge restricting the drainback passages, and filling your top end with oil that's gonna use any passage it can to get out.
#94
07-15-2008, 01:42 AM
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RE: guage problem
thanks boiler. i know theres no guarantee here, but ijust looking for a most likely, which you gave. and no worries about a high pressure. a mopar, stock pump is going back in her. i was just seeing if i needed any other parts when i order tomorrow morning. and i just wanted a heads up of whatto do if and only if i dont ahve pressure after i clean and replace parts in the oil pan. but im not planning on that. im planning to go through a simple oil change. support the trans. un bolt the bolts on the bracket, then unbolt the pan. clean the screen and pick up tube. un bolt the pump and bolt the newone in. close everything back up. put my new oil filteron and pour in my new oil. and hopefully she'll be fixed!
oh and speaking of the oil pump....are there any connections? i would imagine there would be such as wires and all that? i mean is as simple as undoing some bolts, pulling it out and bolting it back in?
oh and speaking of the oil pump....are there any connections? i would imagine there would be such as wires and all that? i mean is as simple as undoing some bolts, pulling it out and bolting it back in?
#95
07-15-2008, 01:47 AM
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#96
07-15-2008, 03:26 AM
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RE: guage problem
No connections on the pump, it's a completely mechanical piece.
I would suggest taking the cover off the new pump & filling it with vaseline (or any other brand of pure petroleum jelly) to prime it.
Make sure you have the correct torque specs for the pump and pan bolts before you do the job. Clean out the oil pan & anything you can easily get at while you have the pan off. Aerosol brake cleaner or gasoline works great for the pan, and just wipe off anything on the under side of the motor the looks like sludge with a clean, lint-free cloth. Make sure the pan rails and the gasket surface of the block are clean and dry as you can get them so you'll get a good seal with the gasket.
I don't think a higher viscosity oil will be necessary after this. Go with what you've been using up till now. This way, you'll be able to see a true difference between the before & after of the oil pump job without wondering if any increase in oil pressure is due to the pump, or to a thicker oil.
I would suggest taking the cover off the new pump & filling it with vaseline (or any other brand of pure petroleum jelly) to prime it.
Make sure you have the correct torque specs for the pump and pan bolts before you do the job. Clean out the oil pan & anything you can easily get at while you have the pan off. Aerosol brake cleaner or gasoline works great for the pan, and just wipe off anything on the under side of the motor the looks like sludge with a clean, lint-free cloth. Make sure the pan rails and the gasket surface of the block are clean and dry as you can get them so you'll get a good seal with the gasket.
I don't think a higher viscosity oil will be necessary after this. Go with what you've been using up till now. This way, you'll be able to see a true difference between the before & after of the oil pump job without wondering if any increase in oil pressure is due to the pump, or to a thicker oil.
#97
07-15-2008, 03:58 AM
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RE: guage problem
Ok, having not torn apart a 4.7L before, I decided to dig a little deeper here.
Seems the oil pump is mounted in the front cover and driven directly off the crankshaft snout. This isn't like a simple drop the pan & swap the oil pump job.
The front cover needs to be removed as well, including any belt driven accessories around it or bolted to it.
The advice I gave in the last post was general stuff that covers just about any oil pump job, including this one, but the 4.7L is a LOT more involved than, say, a brand X **cough**chevy**cough** early small block. This is a gerotor design that goes over the front of the crankshaft.
Quoted from another source: "The oiling system isn't radical, using a clever design first seen on the AMC V8s: the georotor-type pump is mounted in the timing cover, and is driven off the crank snout. Direct drive, unlike the current LA engine, which, if you think about it, is a nightmare. The oil pump drive torque comes off the crank nose, through the chain, to the cam, back through the full length of the cam, through a bevel gearset to the intermediate shaft, and then through a hexagonal drive to the pump itself."
This isn't a job I would suggest a novice taking on. No offence intended to you, mmstar, but this one is a bit more than I think you want to try to swallow.
Seems the oil pump is mounted in the front cover and driven directly off the crankshaft snout. This isn't like a simple drop the pan & swap the oil pump job.
The front cover needs to be removed as well, including any belt driven accessories around it or bolted to it.
The advice I gave in the last post was general stuff that covers just about any oil pump job, including this one, but the 4.7L is a LOT more involved than, say, a brand X **cough**chevy**cough** early small block. This is a gerotor design that goes over the front of the crankshaft.
Quoted from another source: "The oiling system isn't radical, using a clever design first seen on the AMC V8s: the georotor-type pump is mounted in the timing cover, and is driven off the crank snout. Direct drive, unlike the current LA engine, which, if you think about it, is a nightmare. The oil pump drive torque comes off the crank nose, through the chain, to the cam, back through the full length of the cam, through a bevel gearset to the intermediate shaft, and then through a hexagonal drive to the pump itself."
This isn't a job I would suggest a novice taking on. No offence intended to you, mmstar, but this one is a bit more than I think you want to try to swallow.
#98
07-15-2008, 04:03 AM
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RE: guage problem
Here's an excerpt I found describing, in limited detail, part of what you're in for should you try to R&R this oil pump yourself:
REMOVAL
Disconnect the negative battery cable.
Install engine support fixture special tool # 8534. Do not raise engine at this time.
Loosen both left and right side engine mount through bolts. Do not remove bolts.
Remove the structural dust cover, if equipped.
Drain engine oil.
Remove the front crossmember(Refer to 13 - FRAME & BUMPERS/FRAME/FRONT CROSSMEMBER - REMOVAL) .
CAUTION: Only raise the engine enough to provide clearance for oil pan removal. Check for proper clearance at fan shroud to fan and cowl to intake manifold.
Raise engine using special tool # 8534 to provide clearance to remove oil pan.
NOTE: Do not pry on oil pan or oil pan gasket. Gasket is integral to engine windage tray and does not come out with oil pan.
Remove the oil pan mounting bolts and oil pan.
Unbolt oil pump pickup tube and remove tube.
Inspect the integral windage tray and gasket and replace as needed
REMOVAL
Disconnect the battery negative cable.
Drain cooling system (Refer to 7 - COOLING - STANDARD PROCEDURE).
Remove fan and fan drive assembly (Refer to 7 - COOLING/ENGINE/FAN DRIVE VISCOUS CLUTCH - REMOVAL).
Disconnect both heater hoses at timing cover.
Disconnect lower radiator hose at engine.
Remove crankshaft damper (Refer to 9 - ENGINE/ENGINE BLOCK/VIBRATION DAMPER - REMOVAL).
Remove accessory drive belt tensioner assembly (Accessory Drive Belt Tensioner).
Remove the generator (Refer to 8 - ELECTRICAL/CHARGING/GENERATOR - REMOVAL).
Remove A/C compressor (Refer to 24 - HEATING & AIR CONDITIONING/PLUMBING/A/C COMPRESSOR - REMOVAL).
Remove cover (Timing Chain Cover Fasteners).
REMOVAL
Disconnect negative cable from battery.
Drain cooling system (Refer to 7 - COOLING - STANDARD PROCEDURE).
Remove right and left cylinder head covers (Refer to 9 - ENGINE/CYLINDER HEAD/CYLINDER HEAD COVER(S) - REMOVAL).
Remove radiator fan shroud.
Rotate engine until timing mark on crankshaft damper aligns with TDC mark on timing chain cover (Engine Top Dead Center (TDC) Indicator Mark) (#1 cylinder exhaust stroke) and the camshaft sprocket “V8” marks are at the 12 o'clock position (Camshaft Sprocket V8 Marks).
Remove power steering pump (Refer to 19 - STEERING/PUMP - REMOVAL).
Remove access plugs (2) from left and right cylinder heads for access to chain guide fasteners (Cylinder Head Access Plug Location).
Remove the oil fill housing to gain access to the right side tensioner arm fastener.
Remove crankshaft damper (Refer to 9 - ENGINE/ENGINE BLOCK/VIBRATION DAMPER - REMOVAL) and timing chain cover (Refer to 9 - ENGINE/VALVE TIMING/TIMING BELT / CHAIN COVER(S) - REMOVAL).
Collapse and pin primary chain tensioner (Collapsing And Pinning Primary Chain Tensioner).
CAUTION: Plate behind left secondary chain tensioner could fall into oil pan. Therefore, cover pan opening.
Remove secondary chain tensioners.
Remove camshaft position sensor from right cylinder head (Camshaft Position Sensor—Removal).
CAUTION: Care should be taken not to damage camshaft target wheel. Do not hold target wheel while loosening or tightening camshaft sprocket. Do not place the target wheel near a magnetic source of any kind. A damaged or magnetized target wheel could cause a vehicle no start condition.
CAUTION: Do not forcefully rotate the camshafts or crankshaft independently of each other. Damaging intake valve to piston contact will occur. Ensure negative battery cable is disconnected to guard against accidental starter engagement.
Remove left and right camshaft sprocket bolts.
While holding the left camshaft steel tube with adjustable pliers, (Camshaft Rotation—Left Side) remove the left camshaft sprocket. Slowly rotate the camshaft approximately 15 degrees clockwise to a neutral position.
While holding the right camshaft steel tube with adjustable pliers, (Camshaft Rotation—Right Side) remove the right camshaft sprocket. Slowly rotate the camshaft approximately 45 degrees counterclockwise to a neutral position.
Remove idler sprocket assembly bolt.
Slide the idler sprocket assembly and crank sprocket forward simultaneously to remove the primary and secondary chains.
Remove both pivoting tensioner arms and chain guides.
Remove chain tensioner
Disconnect the negative battery cable.
Install engine support fixture special tool # 8534. Do not raise engine at this time.
Loosen both left and right side engine mount through bolts. Do not remove bolts.
Remove the structural dust cover, if equipped.
Drain engine oil.
Remove the front crossmember(Refer to 13 - FRAME & BUMPERS/FRAME/FRONT CROSSMEMBER - REMOVAL) .
CAUTION: Only raise the engine enough to provide clearance for oil pan removal. Check for proper clearance at fan shroud to fan and cowl to intake manifold.
Raise engine using special tool # 8534 to provide clearance to remove oil pan.
NOTE: Do not pry on oil pan or oil pan gasket. Gasket is integral to engine windage tray and does not come out with oil pan.
Remove the oil pan mounting bolts and oil pan.
Unbolt oil pump pickup tube and remove tube.
Inspect the integral windage tray and gasket and replace as needed
REMOVAL
Disconnect the battery negative cable.
Drain cooling system (Refer to 7 - COOLING - STANDARD PROCEDURE).
Remove fan and fan drive assembly (Refer to 7 - COOLING/ENGINE/FAN DRIVE VISCOUS CLUTCH - REMOVAL).
Disconnect both heater hoses at timing cover.
Disconnect lower radiator hose at engine.
Remove crankshaft damper (Refer to 9 - ENGINE/ENGINE BLOCK/VIBRATION DAMPER - REMOVAL).
Remove accessory drive belt tensioner assembly (Accessory Drive Belt Tensioner).
Remove the generator (Refer to 8 - ELECTRICAL/CHARGING/GENERATOR - REMOVAL).
Remove A/C compressor (Refer to 24 - HEATING & AIR CONDITIONING/PLUMBING/A/C COMPRESSOR - REMOVAL).
Remove cover (Timing Chain Cover Fasteners).
REMOVAL
Disconnect negative cable from battery.
Drain cooling system (Refer to 7 - COOLING - STANDARD PROCEDURE).
Remove right and left cylinder head covers (Refer to 9 - ENGINE/CYLINDER HEAD/CYLINDER HEAD COVER(S) - REMOVAL).
Remove radiator fan shroud.
Rotate engine until timing mark on crankshaft damper aligns with TDC mark on timing chain cover (Engine Top Dead Center (TDC) Indicator Mark) (#1 cylinder exhaust stroke) and the camshaft sprocket “V8” marks are at the 12 o'clock position (Camshaft Sprocket V8 Marks).
Remove power steering pump (Refer to 19 - STEERING/PUMP - REMOVAL).
Remove access plugs (2) from left and right cylinder heads for access to chain guide fasteners (Cylinder Head Access Plug Location).
Remove the oil fill housing to gain access to the right side tensioner arm fastener.
Remove crankshaft damper (Refer to 9 - ENGINE/ENGINE BLOCK/VIBRATION DAMPER - REMOVAL) and timing chain cover (Refer to 9 - ENGINE/VALVE TIMING/TIMING BELT / CHAIN COVER(S) - REMOVAL).
Collapse and pin primary chain tensioner (Collapsing And Pinning Primary Chain Tensioner).
CAUTION: Plate behind left secondary chain tensioner could fall into oil pan. Therefore, cover pan opening.
Remove secondary chain tensioners.
Remove camshaft position sensor from right cylinder head (Camshaft Position Sensor—Removal).
CAUTION: Care should be taken not to damage camshaft target wheel. Do not hold target wheel while loosening or tightening camshaft sprocket. Do not place the target wheel near a magnetic source of any kind. A damaged or magnetized target wheel could cause a vehicle no start condition.
CAUTION: Do not forcefully rotate the camshafts or crankshaft independently of each other. Damaging intake valve to piston contact will occur. Ensure negative battery cable is disconnected to guard against accidental starter engagement.
Remove left and right camshaft sprocket bolts.
While holding the left camshaft steel tube with adjustable pliers, (Camshaft Rotation—Left Side) remove the left camshaft sprocket. Slowly rotate the camshaft approximately 15 degrees clockwise to a neutral position.
While holding the right camshaft steel tube with adjustable pliers, (Camshaft Rotation—Right Side) remove the right camshaft sprocket. Slowly rotate the camshaft approximately 45 degrees counterclockwise to a neutral position.
Remove idler sprocket assembly bolt.
Slide the idler sprocket assembly and crank sprocket forward simultaneously to remove the primary and secondary chains.
Remove both pivoting tensioner arms and chain guides.
Remove chain tensioner
#99
07-15-2008, 05:38 AM