4th Gen Ram Tech 2009 - 2018 Rams and the 2019 Ram Classic: This section is for TECHNICAL discussions only, that involve the 2009 - 2018 Rams and the 2019 Ram Classic. For any non-tech discussions, please direct your attention to the "General discussion/NON-tech" sub sections.

Got a call from AEM today about my truck on the dyno

Old Jun 7, 2009 | 10:54 AM
  #41  
crod's Avatar
crod
All Star
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 846
Likes: 0
From: s.e. michigan
Default

Originally Posted by oldjeep
They clog faster because they are oiled. In a normal dry element filter, the dry dust will wind up ejecting when you hit a bump. I've been offroading for a long time, and you always see the kids buy the K&N junk and then remove it after the first dusty trailride.

K&N works just fine on a paved street where there isn;t a lot of dirt in the air, but if there is a lot of fine dust/dirt - some goes into the motor and some gets stuck on the oiled media.

i will agree with you 100% on this statement. luckily im a cityslicker from detroit!

the only dirt road my truck sees is "up north" probably 10 miles or so spread out over a year...
 
Reply
Old Jun 7, 2009 | 11:29 AM
  #42  
AZRAM1500's Avatar
AZRAM1500
Registered User
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
From: Tempe, AZ
Default

Originally Posted by 94rt10ohio
If the K&N clogs faster it is stopping more stuff. If you just clean it then it will not allow the crap through. It can not clog faster and stop less, does not add up, well unless you do not clean it.

I am not defending K&N in any way, just stating if it clogs faster it has to be stopping more.
It is clogging faster because it also has less surface area than the factory paper filter
 

Last edited by AZRAM1500; Jun 7, 2009 at 11:33 AM.
Reply
Old Jun 7, 2009 | 11:48 AM
  #43  
uashemi's Avatar
uashemi
Professional
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
From: Arizona
Default

ALL "independent" tests are bias. This guy wanted to feel better about spending less money. I've seen it first hand with oils. I highly doubt the R&D of a high flow filter was done by a bunch of hillbillies drinking moon shine saying "hey less make a new type o' filter and make it look red and say ya' cin go faster. . ." they did testing to justify and test the theory. Everything is a trade off. Gain power hear, lose power there. Spend less here, spend more there. Whatever you fancy, normal driving, it doesn't matter what you put in as long as there is something there. Until I see a dyno pull for every filter in every vehicle I will never belive that it gains "x" amount across the board.
 
Reply
Old Jun 7, 2009 | 12:07 PM
  #44  
johndeerrm's Avatar
johndeerrm
Amateur
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Default

Originally Posted by 94rt10ohio
And this is a bad thing? If the stock filter is not grabbing it guess where it is going

You have to clean the K&N, no big deal.
I think you misunderstood my post, the K&N filter allowed 18 times more dirt into the engine and exceeded the "maximum flow restriction threshold" of the test 3 times faster than the OEM filter.

Yes I would say that is a bad thing.
 
Reply
Old Jun 7, 2009 | 12:12 PM
  #45  
johndeerrm's Avatar
johndeerrm
Amateur
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Default

Originally Posted by oldjeep
Believe what you like, but here is one of the local setups. These arn't some hillbilly setup in a parking lot.

http://www.hitechmotorsport.com/inde...d=31&Itemid=44


And here is one climate control systems used for dyno cells
http://www.stoweenterprises.com/dynoair.htm
Marketing gimmik at best...
 
Reply
Old Jun 7, 2009 | 12:16 PM
  #46  
oldjeep's Avatar
oldjeep
Champion
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,497
Likes: 1
From: MN
Default

Originally Posted by johndeerrm
Marketing gimmik at best...
Did you happen to look and see who Stowes customers are? Might want to take a look
http://www.stoweenterprises.com/project.htm

The serious race guys use dynos like that, and there are several of them near me.

 
Reply
Old Jun 7, 2009 | 12:16 PM
  #47  
johndeerrm's Avatar
johndeerrm
Amateur
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Default

Originally Posted by sarguy01
I am keeping my K&N drop in since I hate paying 11$ every oil change for a paper filter.

We have a lifetime warranty on our engines anyway. I am not worried. Where is the study of the % of engines that fail due to a K&N drop in? Give me that and maybe I will change my mind.
I do know the diesel guys who switch to k&n type filters see increased silica on oil analysis reports then shortly after start seeing increased PB and CU levels from bearings getting chewed up by the dirt the filter passes into the engine. That’s good enough for me.
 
Reply
Old Jun 7, 2009 | 12:28 PM
  #48  
sarguy01's Avatar
sarguy01
Record Breaker
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,661
Likes: 1
From: Virginia Beach
Default

Originally Posted by johndeerrm
I do know the diesel guys who switch to k&n type filters see increased silica on oil analysis reports then shortly after start seeing increased PB and CU levels from bearings getting chewed up by the dirt the filter passes into the engine. That’s good enough for me.
Where are these reports? Do you have a link?

I want to see the oil analysis on a truck that used a K&N compared to a truck that did not use a K&N. The engines need to have the same miles, be the same type, etc. What I am saying is that I want to see a real experiment with the only variable being the filters.

What were the driving conditions of the truck tested? Was it in a sandy area or was it a city, suburbs, etc?

Bearings wear out over time anyway. Another question I have is how does an increase in dirt in the intake, intake manifold, and combustion chamber end up in the oil? I understand there is blow by, but an increase that causes bearing to fail means dirt is getting in the crank case.
 
Reply
Old Jun 7, 2009 | 12:33 PM
  #49  
johndeerrm's Avatar
johndeerrm
Amateur
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Default

Originally Posted by 94rt10ohio
If the K&N clogs faster it is stopping more stuff. If you just clean it then it will not allow the crap through. It can not clog faster and stop less, does not add up, well unless you do not clean it.

I am not defending K&N in any way, just stating if it clogs faster it has to be stopping more.
Ok let me talk slowly so you can understand.

Read this report that compares a K&N type filter to an OEM AC Delco filter.

http://www.duramax-diesel.com/spicer/index.htm

Ok, the test is a measure of filter restriction.

The K&N filter starts out restricting 4.45 inches of water.
The OEM filter starts out restricting 6.23 inches of water.

The test was run by feeding the filter dirt at a constant rate of 9.6 grams per minute. During the test the restriction of each filter was measured as well as the amount of time it took for the filter to reach a maximum restriction limit of 10 in/h2o+initial restriction. (so 14.45 inches of water MAX for the K&N and 16.23 inches of water for the OEM filter).


The K&N filter
  • Reached its maximum restriction level in 24 min. (3 times faster than OEM)
  • Captured 221 Grams of dirt (37% less than OEM)
  • Passed 7 Grams of dirt into the engine (18 times more dirt in the engine than OEM).
The OEM - AC DELCO paper filter
  • Reached its maximum restriction level in 60 min.
  • Captured 574 Grams of dirt.
  • Passed 0.4 grams of dirt into the engine.
Looking at the chart on the website titled "ISO 5011 AIR Filter Test: Dust Loading Curves", you can clearly see that the restriction of the K&N type filter exceeded the OEM paper filter after only capturing about 180 grams of dust. After that the OEM filter provided better flow.

I cant make this argument any simpler.
 
Reply
Old Jun 7, 2009 | 12:43 PM
  #50  
oldjeep's Avatar
oldjeep
Champion
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,497
Likes: 1
From: MN
Default

And to me it's somewhat revealing that when K&N does their testing that they do not do fine dust testing on gasoline engine filters. My suspicious side says that if they performed acceptably with the fine dust that they would use those results.

http://www.knfilters.com/efficiency_testing.htm

Under the parameters of the ISO test, the user may select the grade of test dust used. The content of the two most commonly used types of ISO test dust for air filters are as follows:


As has become customary in the automotive industry, we use Coarse Test Dust for gasoline engine air filters and Fine Test Dust for diesel engine air filters. This practice of using different grades of test dust developed because Diesel engines require higher levels of filtration because they operate at much higher compression and require finer tolerances than Gasoline engines.
 
Reply

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:33 AM.