I dont think any of us is saying all the jobs are easy, nor do all the jobs deserve a pay cut....but even you have to admit there are people overpaid in the union for the jobs they do.

Which is more difficult??? Making glass or pushing around/bolting some frames?

 

If you figure in all of the pensions and other benefits, It cost GM $72 per hr per employee and about $35 for the Toyota employee making the same hourly wage with insurance and benefits. This is why they can make more money and survive selling less vehicles.

I make $20 an hour in a manufacturing facility doing maintenance work and I live quite comfortably. I do not live beyond my means and have a nice 1800 sq ft house, 3 new Dodges bought this year, a Mustang and a 63 F100. I understand that the cost of living is different in different parts of the country and the wages should be adjusted accordingly, but $20 to $25 an hour is good money.
I lost my job of 18 years due to the crappy automotive economy because we were mostly an automotive supplier of injection molded plastic parts. Mainly seatbelt parts.
I have since gotten a job doing the same work in a non-automotive plant. I feel much more secure now. So I know from experience that we all must sacrifice during these tough times. I was lucky and got a job starting at the same pay that I had, but it is now 40 miles from home vs 3 so fuel cost and wear and tear will be an added expense as well, but I will make it.
You union guys can give up a bit and make it too. Friends of mine that went to the Camry plant here in Kentucky (Georgetown) are all very happy. They are treated very will and paid good without the union sucking them dry for dues and such.


Bankruptcy may be the only way to get out from under the UAW's wicked web legally at this point.

 

Typically the people who are against unions are those that have never benefitted from one, or those who have desk/computer/talk to people all day jobs. (read: paper pushers)

I work for a utility company (rhymes with horizon) as a field tech. We make $31.44/hr., and anything after 49 hrs is double-time, so a 90 hr week for example gets you over $4300. I never make less than 90k, and I could make 120 easily if I really hit the ot hard. Do non-union utility employees get double-time after 49 hrs? No. Am I overpaid? There are a few deaths across the country every year, and endless injuries, some of them career ending. Regardless, the risk of injury is always there. Conversely, should someone who sits behind a desk all day get paid $100k to say "work faster guys"? Grown men with "management" degrees are a joke, and should be ashamed to tell their families what they really do for a living.

So in conclusion, unions rule. Tell the homos wearing ties to take a pay cut.

 

Eh, your also not working an assembly line either.....

No one is berating the union idea itself, its the greedy ******** running it that seem to think their **** dont stink. It's one thing to push for higher wages, but when its either take a pay cut or lose your job....

You tell me...would you take a $11 paycut or lose your job outright? Most of these guys are being asked to just that....

Oh, and I happen to be one of those "paper pusher types" you referred too...

I'm not against unions, I'm merely against stupidity....

 

If you figure in all of the pensions and other benefits, It cost GM $72 per hr per employee and about $35 for the Toyota employee making the same hourly wage with insurance and benefits. This is why they can make more money and survive selling less vehicles.

the difference in pay here is because there are alot more gm pensioners than there are toyota pensioners
also i beleve that toyota employies make just a few dollars less than everybody else

 

I think, given the extreme circumstances of the situation, yes, the workers should definitly agree to a pay cut.
Obviously, GM and Chrysler need to cut costs immediatly in order to even stay afloat.
$27/hour is not bad money, and is a lot more than a lot of Americans make.
The UAW and all their management, as well as the workers, need to realize that probably to survive this problem, their going to have to make short-term sacrifices. Your telling me that taking a pay cut (and probably saving your job) is worse than flat-out losing your job? You tell me that, and I'll show you a liar.

Therea are a lot of people that work very hard, stressful jobs that don't make half of what you make.

Unions are a big problem of a lot of these industries. I've never worked in a production line or field work or anything, so I can't speak from experiance, but I know I just read that the UAW agreed with GM that new hirees would get $14/hour and "it also agreed to a new flexible pact with GM that lets workers do multiple jobs." I don't know what the old pact was, or what exactly "multiple jobs" means, but I can tell you this: the UAW should have been flexible before this ever could have become an issue.
GM should be able to put a worker where that worker is needed (provided, obviously, that worker knows what he is doing). Plain and simple. There should be no need for "new pacts" on this garbage. The words "this isn't my job," are 4 words that shouldn't be uttered in a "Big 3" plant right now.

I really want to think that the "Big 3" workers want their companies to survive, but than I hear the complaining about "cutting my $27/hr salary" or "making me do other jobs," and after hearing that, you know what I think? I think, "Fine. Let them loose their jobs. They don't want to give up the benifits that got them in this problem, let them earn what 10 million unemployed Americans are earning today. Let them try to find another job, yet alone one that has the same pay and benifits as what they have now!"

I don't really have a problem with the unions, their a good idea. But, fact is, they are pricing themselves out of business. Labor costs are a major reason why the US can't compete on the global market. Even if most people know stuff made in China is complete garbage, they still buy it. Why? Because it's the cheapest price. But, apparently most Americans are so stupid they think their salary comes from the air, and is not reflected in anyway the "end product" of whatever it is their company makes. Or we think we've invincible to job losses.
So, as Shapmans' signature says, keep buying foreign... "it's not your job that'll be cut."
/end novel and vent

 

Here is the deal all of you can play armchair quarterback all you want. The taxpayer did not get screwed in 1980, it actually made money. The loan guarantees were not popular then either. But it seems our wonderful commander in chief is going to suggest bankruptcy for gm and chrysler on friday. Chrysabus has already stated that if that happens we will liquidate. Not resurrect. We have already taken cuts. We would take something reasonable, but to ask for more than 10 percent is just too much. Where does it stop? They even said we could work for free and that would not fix the problem. We have given concessions every contract that I have been with the company. I've been a proud Chrysler worker for almost 9 years.

Like I said earlier you all can play quarterback, but its my job, and over 350000 other directly employed by the big three. Not only will we lose on bankruptcy so will the over 500000 supplier employees. If we file and those companies go unpaid they too will go belly up.

Too be quite honest I'm scared to death of losing my home, my wife's jeep, and even my family if we have no where to go. So say what you want about this situation, but millions of people are depending on the outcome.

I don't know what you guys think we do with our money, but it goes right back into the economy. I make less I buy less, I go out to eat less and so on. So even more people will be out of a job. I don't own a big house on a hill. I live in an average 1500 ft house in warren mi. Warren is an inner ring suburb of detroit. I own an eight year old intrepid, and a two year old commander that I am leasing. No extravagant lifestyle here.
To answer a few of the questions I remember....

I have worked in a glass plant derrick. McGraw glass was a chrysler plant till we outsourced the entire operation. Yes it was very hot, but the work was FAR easier than vehicle assy. We have several mcgraw people over at the truck plant and they are hating life. They as most of you had no idea how hard we work at the truck plant.

To whoever asked about the get a job with about the same pay. Actually when I came to chrysler I took a pay cut from where I was at my old job. The main reason I came to chrysler was the pension, and benefits. Not the money. I was a resturant manager before I worked for chrysler. I made 38k a year 9 years ago. So back then I was making about 17/hr. (45 hr per week).

Also I am only about a semester short of an assoc. degree in business. But stopped that when I got hired at chrysler.

P.S. just because you have a piece of paper telling you that you are smart does not make you smart. Remember all of the people that got us into this mess have degrees. Also anyone can be trained on most jobs, not just manual labor jobs. Honest people used to get those jobs way before degrees were required. For the most part they did them better than the know it all grads of today as well. Our best supervisors are ones that came from the floor. Not the ones with the piece of paper telling us how smart they are. They are usually the ones that cause major malfunctions on the line.

So it looks like most of you will get your wish of seeing the big three go down. Hope you don't mind that when a good chunk of the country comes along for the ride.

Pat I seen you must be drinking the toyota kool aid now. They don't build a better car than us now, they just have a better pr department. Also known as consumer reports.


Just one final note, I have a distant cousin that works for the honda plant in ohio. I make a whole 2 dollars more an hour than he does. Also those plants in the south where shelby and corker are from, those states have already given those companies millions if not billions of dollars to build in their state. So we have already given the imports their bailout, plus they get money from their home countries.

 

Bankruptcy is not the answer, would hurt the US economy FAR worse then restructuring or shutting down...

 

I never said that having a degree/piece of paper means that you are smarter. I am stating that without it you WILL NOT get a job making that money and benefits unless you have "connections" or are really gifted in a specific field naturally. You can't even argue that. And you're not going bankrupt at least yet, Bush is going to loan GM & Chrysler the money they asked for. I also don't want to see any of the three go down, but I also believe that if you can't fix the problem you need to just disband and liquidate.

 

shap, Im not trying to say that the big three needs to go belly up, and it seems that el presidente bush isnt going to let it happen. as much as i dont like this area, id rather not see it get even worse, and i know plenty of good people who work in the industry, like yourself, who i dont wish to see out of work...

however, having spent some times walking through each station in the F150 plant, and hearing that the temperature stays between 70-80 degrees, doesnt make the job seem that awful or demanding. While i was there, the workers got two breaks, and all of the heavy work was done by manually control robotic arms. it is my understanding that the dearborn plant is pretty advanced with its layout and function, but are the other plants that much more uncomfortable and labor intensive?

im not trying to say that you guys dont work harder than a desk jockey, but the basic floor workers looked pretty comfortable.

i also dont see how im supporting toyota based on their PR department. Im just saying that they also employ american workers. ive never owned a toyota, and having driven a tundra on the ford proving grounds, i wont ever buy one.