Not the ECM?
Thread Starter
|
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Got the ecm numbers. The one they have in there now is a P56040882. I looked it up and it is for a 96-97 dodge van 5.2L so the van runs with this one but I have no dashboard controls but all the warning lights are on. Also have the nobus for milage
My van original ECM is a P56040403AE.
They seem to be at a loss as to what to do next. Since they have already been paid I cannot afford to go anywhere else.
My van original ECM is a P56040403AE.
They seem to be at a loss as to what to do next. Since they have already been paid I cannot afford to go anywhere else.
Van & CUV Section Moderator
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,371
Likes: 115
Okay, the P56040882 unit is a 1996 one so it is not compatible with the digital dash cluster installed in your van. Thats why the gauges don't work and you're getting the nobus message.
What was the PCM number off the new one that didn't work?
What was the PCM number off the new one that didn't work?
Van & CUV Section Moderator
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,371
Likes: 115
In that case, the only possibilities at this point is one or more bad connections at the 3 PCM connectors, or a fuse (although not blown) isn't making a good connection.
Boy oh boy do I ever wish you were near me. I live to get my hands on challenges like this. Sometimes it takes a day or two, but I always seem to manage to find the problems. Actually in thinking about it, I don't know if you're near me or not. I recall you went to a Six Flags and I'm about 5 minutes away from a Six Flags...hmmm. It would really stink to learn now that you're just around the corner from me and this problem could've been solved 6 weeks ago. LOL (I think)
Boy oh boy do I ever wish you were near me. I live to get my hands on challenges like this. Sometimes it takes a day or two, but I always seem to manage to find the problems. Actually in thinking about it, I don't know if you're near me or not. I recall you went to a Six Flags and I'm about 5 minutes away from a Six Flags...hmmm. It would really stink to learn now that you're just around the corner from me and this problem could've been solved 6 weeks ago. LOL (I think)
Last edited by alloro; Aug 20, 2010 at 10:29 PM.
Record Breaker
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,174
Likes: 1
From: North TX
Alloro, I wonder about something. I know that the 98 and newer vans with the digital odometers use part of the BCM for memory storage. And the BCM and PCM do communicate with each other, like the "No Buss" on the digital odometer during some of these no start conditions. Could there be a problem with the BCM instead of the PCM?
Record Breaker
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,412
Likes: 2
From: Nashville
Alloro, I wonder about something. I know that the 98 and newer vans with the digital odometers use part of the BCM for memory storage. And the BCM and PCM do communicate with each other, like the "No Buss" on the digital odometer during some of these no start conditions. Could there be a problem with the BCM instead of the PCM?
That instrument cluster of gauges may need to be pulled out to look at those connections on the back side too.
One can test the cluster by doing this ...
1998+ Ram Instrument Panel Test w/ error code chart ...
http://dodgeram.org/tech/repair/elec...anel_check.htm
She will need to have the original or the replacement of the same PCM for her van installed to run this test. The 1996-7 PCM will not report anything.
-----------------
1998+ instrument clusters have a self diagnostic test you can run for your enjoyment and information.
1. Begin with the key off and vehicle stopped.
2. Depress AND HOLD the trip odometer reset button and turn the ignition switch to the ON position BUT DO NOT START THE TRUCK.
3. Continue to hold the reset button in for about 10 seconds until "CHEC" appears in the odometer display, then release the button.
4. A series of 3 digit error messages MAY appear in the display (IF you had cluster problems) but if not then the display will proceed with the segment test; all segments then each individual segment in sequence will illuminate. If any do not, the cluster is a candidate for service. If all are OK then the next test follows.
5. The bulb of each amber indicator lamp that the cluster controls will light individually, if not, the bulb may be bad, the bulb may be loose or the bulb holder may not be installed correctly. The red indicators are LED's and if they don't light in the test the cluster must be replaced.
6. The gauge actuator test is next. The cluster circuitry will position each of the gauge needles at three different calibration points and then return the needle to its relaxed position. If any one does not respond correctly, check the spring-clip terminal pins on the cluster. If those are OK the cluster is bad.
7. The self-diagnostic test is completed. The cluster will self exit the test mode and return to normal at the end of the test. If the key is turned off during the test or if the PCM sends a message on the CCD bus that there is movement of the vehicle, the test ends. Try it!
Follow the link above to see the error code chart for the cluster. Error 110 means that the cluster is bad and need to be fully replaced. Others are less dramatic.
------------------------------------
Hey, looking online, I found this company that makes clusters for Dodge and others ...
http://www.simcoltd.com/aftermarket-products/dodge-ram Not sure if they can help with the Ram Van though. Give them a call, maybe they do or know who does.
Here's one that's slightly used ...
http://instrumentclusterstore.com/IN...TER-C4847.aspx
Having a Dodge Ram Van Service Manual for 1998-2003 would be very helpful too. Here's a link to Geno's Garage with some of the basics needed to pull out the cluster. Review the images there. This is a TSB for a problem cluster issue of the 1999 Ram Vans and Dakotas. http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2000/08-05-00.htm
Last edited by stev; Aug 21, 2010 at 10:41 AM.
Record Breaker
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,412
Likes: 2
From: Nashville
CLUSTER BULB ACCESS
NOTE: This procedure applies to each of the incandescent cluster illumination lamp bulb and bulb holder units. If the vehicle is equipped with the optional Remote Keyless Entry (RKE) system, the RKE module must be removed from the instrument cluster rear cover to access the lower center cluster illumination lamp, which is located on the circuit board directly behind the RKE module.
* Disconnect and isolate the battery negative cable.
* Remove the instrument cluster from the instrument panel.
* From the back of the instrument cluster (1), turn the bulb holder counterclockwise about 30 degrees on the cluster electronic circuit board.
* Pull the bulb and bulb holder unit straight out from the keyed opening in the cluster electronic circuit board.
NOTE: This procedure applies to each of the incandescent cluster illumination lamp bulb and bulb holder units. If the vehicle is equipped with the optional Remote Keyless Entry (RKE) system, the RKE module must be removed from the instrument cluster rear cover to access the lower center cluster illumination lamp, which is located on the circuit board directly behind the RKE module.
* Disconnect and isolate the battery negative cable.
* Remove the instrument cluster from the instrument panel.
* From the back of the instrument cluster (1), turn the bulb holder counterclockwise about 30 degrees on the cluster electronic circuit board.
* Pull the bulb and bulb holder unit straight out from the keyed opening in the cluster electronic circuit board.
Last edited by stev; Aug 21, 2010 at 10:55 AM.
Van & CUV Section Moderator
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,371
Likes: 115
It's a good thought, but despite stev's rather enthusiastic reply the answer is no, the BCM is not the source of the problem, especially since she doesn't have one. What used to be a BCM is now incorporated into the PCM, with the ABS module being the exception.
However, just for the sake of argument, if her original PCM or the new one is installed, there has been no report of the gauges not working, only that the engine doesn't start. This means the dash is communicating the the correct PCM. Now when the incorrect PCM is installed, the engine runs but there is no PCM/Dash communication. This is to be expected since this wrong PCM does not support the digital dash in her van. In other words, there is no common language between the PCM and Digital Dash for them to communicate, so you get the nobus message.
But of course, I could be wrong. It's been known to happen from time to time.
However, just for the sake of argument, if her original PCM or the new one is installed, there has been no report of the gauges not working, only that the engine doesn't start. This means the dash is communicating the the correct PCM. Now when the incorrect PCM is installed, the engine runs but there is no PCM/Dash communication. This is to be expected since this wrong PCM does not support the digital dash in her van. In other words, there is no common language between the PCM and Digital Dash for them to communicate, so you get the nobus message.
But of course, I could be wrong. It's been known to happen from time to time.
Record Breaker
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,174
Likes: 1
From: North TX
Ok I understand what you said. Here is another idea. I know on many of the newer Chevy's that if the PCM or any other ?CM is changed and not programmed with the current vehicle VIN that it will cause havoc for all the electronically stored VINs must match. Are any of these newer Dodges prone to this? Is the VIN stored electronically somewhere else and not matching what the new PCM has?
Record Breaker
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,412
Likes: 2
From: Nashville
Just to prove that the instrument cluster IS communicating to the PCM, the original PCM or the identical p/n PCM needs to be installed and try the Instrument Panel Test even though the engine will not start. This would rule the instrument cluster out of the picture.
This is rather lengthy, but searched for a few hours and found more of this no-bus no-start.
Now, I would like everyone here to read this thread since the Ram Truck is very similar to the Ram Van on many things. https://dodgeforum.com/forum/2nd-gen...-problems.html This deals with the NO BUSS issue.
I have heard several people mention there is a connection in the fuse block that has a bolt through it that often corrodes. Something about cleaning the B(+) connection.
Found a person at Carpros forum with a 1999 Dodge Ram Van with the "no bus" "no start" problem. They looked at the PCM, Instrument cluster and wires. It ended up being a shorted grounded wire on Crank Position Sensor. Installed new sensor and the van starts and runs fine.
Here's how 5V short can fool the engine not to start and make the PCM look dead ...
Information from a Chrysler Tech (10 years Electrical Diagnosing, Repairing, Maintaining Automobiles)
If the 5v power supply circuit is shorted to ground, the bus is unable to transmit messages and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) appears to be dead. The PCM is not damaged when the 5v power supply gets shorted to ground, but does need to be reset by turning the key off for 10 seconds after the short is removed. Using a Digital Volt Ohm Meter (DVOM) o, measure the voltage on the 5v reference wire at the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) or Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor. If 5v is not present, unplug the Camshaft Position (CMP) sensor. Turn the key off for 10 seconds. Turn the key on and measure the voltage on the 5v power supply circuit. If the voltage is now 5v, replace the CMP sensor. Do the same for all sensors that run off the 5V signal. Especially the crank sensor as they are the most common to fail.
These are all the sensors running off the 5V signal.
Camshaft Position Sensor (CMP)
Crankshaft Position Sensor (CKP)
Governor Pressure Sensor
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor
Oil Pressure Sensor
Powertrain Control Module (PCM)
Throttle Position Sensor (TPS)
If this fails...
Look at complete bus failure. Meaning, a module is taking the network down.
The BUS voltage can be tested at the Diagnostic Link Connector (DLC) at pin 3 (Violet/Brown) and pin 11 (White/Black). You should see 2.5V. If not, something is taking down the network.
Unplug one module at a time until the network comes back.
1. The BUS voltage originates from the IC. Begin by unplugging all of the modules that are on the BUS circuit, while monitoring the BUS voltage. These include PCM, Central Timer Module (CTM), Controller Anti-Lock Brake (CAB), overhead console, radio, Airbag Control Module (ACM). Leave the IC plugged in for this test.
2. When the BUS voltage returns to approximately 2.5 volts, the module that was disconnected last is the bad module, replace it.
Modules include...
ACM
Controller Anti-Lock Brake (CAB) Module
CTM
Overhead Console
Powertrain Control Module (PCM)
Radio
Wiring Harness
DO NOT OHM these wires with modules connected!!! You can fry the modules. They are solid state and will fry.
The radio also runs off the Bus. Yes, it does communicate with the rest of the modules for numerous operations.
A Central Timer Module (CTM) is only used on high-line versions of this vehicle that are also equipped with the Vehicle Theft Security System (VTSS). It is located behind the glove box on the left support panel.
Also, it could be the wires to the PCM due to high heat and aging under the hood brow.
Dug up this too .... ---- >
http://www.allpar.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=107971
Q. A friend of mine is getting a "no bus" message in the odometer window and his 2001 dodge 1500 van is having trouble starting. Jiggle wires around engine and got some results. Has anyone had a similar problem that they have fixed?
A. Bus voltages (+ and - 2.5 volts) are used by the PCM to communicate with the other modules on the vehicle and with the DLC (data link connector,at the drivers lower dash, to communicate with a scan tool, etc) along a twisted-wire pair(white and violet). The voltages originate from the instrument cluster. Make sure fuse #1 in the junction block is OK. It's the one under the hood. Make sure that cluster is plugged in OK. Do all the gauges and warning lamps work? Try wiggling wires behind the cluster. Check powers and grounds. Possible solder joints broken on cluster circuit board? This is where I would start.
This is rather lengthy, but searched for a few hours and found more of this no-bus no-start.
Now, I would like everyone here to read this thread since the Ram Truck is very similar to the Ram Van on many things. https://dodgeforum.com/forum/2nd-gen...-problems.html This deals with the NO BUSS issue.
I have heard several people mention there is a connection in the fuse block that has a bolt through it that often corrodes. Something about cleaning the B(+) connection.
Found a person at Carpros forum with a 1999 Dodge Ram Van with the "no bus" "no start" problem. They looked at the PCM, Instrument cluster and wires. It ended up being a shorted grounded wire on Crank Position Sensor. Installed new sensor and the van starts and runs fine.
Here's how 5V short can fool the engine not to start and make the PCM look dead ...
Information from a Chrysler Tech (10 years Electrical Diagnosing, Repairing, Maintaining Automobiles)
If the 5v power supply circuit is shorted to ground, the bus is unable to transmit messages and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) appears to be dead. The PCM is not damaged when the 5v power supply gets shorted to ground, but does need to be reset by turning the key off for 10 seconds after the short is removed. Using a Digital Volt Ohm Meter (DVOM) o, measure the voltage on the 5v reference wire at the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) or Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor. If 5v is not present, unplug the Camshaft Position (CMP) sensor. Turn the key off for 10 seconds. Turn the key on and measure the voltage on the 5v power supply circuit. If the voltage is now 5v, replace the CMP sensor. Do the same for all sensors that run off the 5V signal. Especially the crank sensor as they are the most common to fail.
These are all the sensors running off the 5V signal.
Camshaft Position Sensor (CMP)
Crankshaft Position Sensor (CKP)
Governor Pressure Sensor
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor
Oil Pressure Sensor
Powertrain Control Module (PCM)
Throttle Position Sensor (TPS)
If this fails...
Look at complete bus failure. Meaning, a module is taking the network down.
The BUS voltage can be tested at the Diagnostic Link Connector (DLC) at pin 3 (Violet/Brown) and pin 11 (White/Black). You should see 2.5V. If not, something is taking down the network.
Unplug one module at a time until the network comes back.
1. The BUS voltage originates from the IC. Begin by unplugging all of the modules that are on the BUS circuit, while monitoring the BUS voltage. These include PCM, Central Timer Module (CTM), Controller Anti-Lock Brake (CAB), overhead console, radio, Airbag Control Module (ACM). Leave the IC plugged in for this test.
2. When the BUS voltage returns to approximately 2.5 volts, the module that was disconnected last is the bad module, replace it.
Modules include...
ACM
Controller Anti-Lock Brake (CAB) Module
CTM
Overhead Console
Powertrain Control Module (PCM)
Radio
Wiring Harness
DO NOT OHM these wires with modules connected!!! You can fry the modules. They are solid state and will fry.
The radio also runs off the Bus. Yes, it does communicate with the rest of the modules for numerous operations.
A Central Timer Module (CTM) is only used on high-line versions of this vehicle that are also equipped with the Vehicle Theft Security System (VTSS). It is located behind the glove box on the left support panel.
Also, it could be the wires to the PCM due to high heat and aging under the hood brow.
Dug up this too .... ---- >
http://www.allpar.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=107971
Q. A friend of mine is getting a "no bus" message in the odometer window and his 2001 dodge 1500 van is having trouble starting. Jiggle wires around engine and got some results. Has anyone had a similar problem that they have fixed?
A. Bus voltages (+ and - 2.5 volts) are used by the PCM to communicate with the other modules on the vehicle and with the DLC (data link connector,at the drivers lower dash, to communicate with a scan tool, etc) along a twisted-wire pair(white and violet). The voltages originate from the instrument cluster. Make sure fuse #1 in the junction block is OK. It's the one under the hood. Make sure that cluster is plugged in OK. Do all the gauges and warning lamps work? Try wiggling wires behind the cluster. Check powers and grounds. Possible solder joints broken on cluster circuit board? This is where I would start.