'98 2.5 w/#1 & #5 misfire; replaced all plugs & wires, now idle is worse!
#1
09-13-2006, 12:54 AM
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location:
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'98 2.5 w/#1 & #5 misfire; replaced all plugs & wires, now idle is worse!
I used Chevelles.com heavily for technical assistance, prior to my December '05 sale. This is my first Dodge Forum posting.
I purchased & installed Autolite wires & platinum-tipped plugs yesterday. I didn't adjust the gaps since they seemed within spec, ~.039". Haynes indicates plug torque to 18 ft. lbs, which I did. Manifold torque spec is 156 in. lbs. (which is below my 3/8" drive wrench's 10 ft. lb. minimum), so I did "what felt right". I re-used the manifold gasket, which was previously posted to be acceptable. I feel confident that plug wires are correct, all sensors connections are made and vacuum lines are correct. Still, once at operating temp, deceleration to idle is weak. It will stall if the accelerator isn't "feathered" once or twice to stabilize the idle. Again, this condition is worse than when I started the project, but not by much. I copped-out by not replacing the rotor & cap for cost reasons, but expect I'll just have to bend over and take the ~$50 hit. Still, I think there are other gremlins in place besides those components.
I'd previously paid $35 for the scan for codes, which indicated misfires on #1 and #5. Reading this 'site today, I hit AutoZone on the way home. It seems that their scan tool is generally worthless for my situation. P0300 is the only code that was offered, which doesn't really point in any general direction. I'm assuming that my original scan used a much more advanced/pricey tool.
During the manifold & plug removal process, I noticed two disturbing conditions:
1. Each plug tube had at least a teaspoon of oil inside. I first accepted this as "spillage", but eventually found it in every tube. Please help me to understand the cause of this! Any practical methods of wiping/removing this oil w/plug in place?
2. Upon removal of the upper manifold, I see what appears to be baked-on engine oil embedded w/grit! I felt it, but made sure to leave it undisturbed. This definitely doesn't seem normal nor healthy. Any indications which could cause this coating? Down toward the venturis, the surfaces looked varnished, but normal.
Please assist. I combed through the Avenger forum, but my situation doesn't truly mirror any previous post that I've seen- especially the oil-coated intake surfaces and plug tubes w/oil. I've owned this 88k mile car for the last ~6k, but can't speak for it's previous history.
Thank you,
Brian
[IMG]local://upfiles/44209/5E27926E1ED64632A4B04E48AAD562C3.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/44209/A55D1B7A7BB24AF9BC9FC5F98809F2B0.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/44209/6D941CA8BD784D47B9251F821D076681.jpg[/IMG]
I purchased & installed Autolite wires & platinum-tipped plugs yesterday. I didn't adjust the gaps since they seemed within spec, ~.039". Haynes indicates plug torque to 18 ft. lbs, which I did. Manifold torque spec is 156 in. lbs. (which is below my 3/8" drive wrench's 10 ft. lb. minimum), so I did "what felt right". I re-used the manifold gasket, which was previously posted to be acceptable. I feel confident that plug wires are correct, all sensors connections are made and vacuum lines are correct. Still, once at operating temp, deceleration to idle is weak. It will stall if the accelerator isn't "feathered" once or twice to stabilize the idle. Again, this condition is worse than when I started the project, but not by much. I copped-out by not replacing the rotor & cap for cost reasons, but expect I'll just have to bend over and take the ~$50 hit. Still, I think there are other gremlins in place besides those components.
I'd previously paid $35 for the scan for codes, which indicated misfires on #1 and #5. Reading this 'site today, I hit AutoZone on the way home. It seems that their scan tool is generally worthless for my situation. P0300 is the only code that was offered, which doesn't really point in any general direction. I'm assuming that my original scan used a much more advanced/pricey tool.
During the manifold & plug removal process, I noticed two disturbing conditions:
1. Each plug tube had at least a teaspoon of oil inside. I first accepted this as "spillage", but eventually found it in every tube. Please help me to understand the cause of this! Any practical methods of wiping/removing this oil w/plug in place?
2. Upon removal of the upper manifold, I see what appears to be baked-on engine oil embedded w/grit! I felt it, but made sure to leave it undisturbed. This definitely doesn't seem normal nor healthy. Any indications which could cause this coating? Down toward the venturis, the surfaces looked varnished, but normal.
Please assist. I combed through the Avenger forum, but my situation doesn't truly mirror any previous post that I've seen- especially the oil-coated intake surfaces and plug tubes w/oil. I've owned this 88k mile car for the last ~6k, but can't speak for it's previous history.
Thank you,
Brian
[IMG]local://upfiles/44209/5E27926E1ED64632A4B04E48AAD562C3.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/44209/A55D1B7A7BB24AF9BC9FC5F98809F2B0.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/44209/6D941CA8BD784D47B9251F821D076681.jpg[/IMG]
#2
09-13-2006, 03:21 AM
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 2,305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: '98 2.5 w/#1 & #5 misfire; replaced all plugs & wires, now idle is worse!
You've gone further than some have in here with the motor I believe, so you most likely won't get much in the way of mirrored issues, lol.
From the looks of your lower intake, it looks to me like carbon and oil buildup....bad case of it. Looks like it needs some serious Seafoam or MCCC cleaning! Make sure you EGR valve is working.
156in lbs is also 13ft lbs btw...just divide by 12...12inches in 1 foot thing
The scan that you paid for sounds like they actually hooked it up to a computer whereas autozone has that handheld code reader that's about $100.
Oil in your spark plug tubes is an indication of worn spark plug tube seals (gaskets). Bah, that's all I can think of at the moment so I will have to cool it down for a bit.
From the looks of your lower intake, it looks to me like carbon and oil buildup....bad case of it. Looks like it needs some serious Seafoam or MCCC cleaning! Make sure you EGR valve is working.
156in lbs is also 13ft lbs btw...just divide by 12...12inches in 1 foot thing
The scan that you paid for sounds like they actually hooked it up to a computer whereas autozone has that handheld code reader that's about $100.
Oil in your spark plug tubes is an indication of worn spark plug tube seals (gaskets). Bah, that's all I can think of at the moment so I will have to cool it down for a bit.
#3
09-15-2006, 12:36 AM
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location:
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: '98 2.5 w/#1 & #5 misfire; replaced all plugs & wires, now idle is worse!
Thanks SC, I knew you'd have some valuable responses.
I've had my OBD scanned twice in the last two days, after the plug & wire replacement. Both scan tools were the generic, non-helpful P0300 output versions. I need more info, but it seems I'll have to pay for a more detailed evaluation scan. I won't sweat the oil-in-the-plug-tube situation, but I'd like to know of a simple, effective way to wipe it clean while the plugs are in-place.
I've grabbed two cans of SeaFoam- one for the oil, one for the manifold. Please suggest the best access point for adding the solvent since the manifold will still be installed!
Regarding the torque conversion, I'd erroneously divided 156 (in. lbs.) by 16, instead of 12. This calculation gave me 9.75 (ft. lbs.) which was below my wrench's 10 ft. lb. minimum (though probably close enough to still use).
Here's an unrelated note: I observed that one of my distributor hold-down nuts is missing. Obviously gone for some time, the stud is fully rusted/corroded. I need to clean it and find another nut to secure it. I suppose this could provide just enough play in the distributor to wreak havoc with my ignition. Thoughts??
Our 5th annual Austin City Limits Music Festival begins tomorrow and I'm fully committed to the three-day event. I probably won't have enough time nor clear thoughts to get much work done
Feel free to add any other comments.
Thanks,
Brian
I've had my OBD scanned twice in the last two days, after the plug & wire replacement. Both scan tools were the generic, non-helpful P0300 output versions. I need more info, but it seems I'll have to pay for a more detailed evaluation scan. I won't sweat the oil-in-the-plug-tube situation, but I'd like to know of a simple, effective way to wipe it clean while the plugs are in-place.
I've grabbed two cans of SeaFoam- one for the oil, one for the manifold. Please suggest the best access point for adding the solvent since the manifold will still be installed!
Regarding the torque conversion, I'd erroneously divided 156 (in. lbs.) by 16, instead of 12. This calculation gave me 9.75 (ft. lbs.) which was below my wrench's 10 ft. lb. minimum (though probably close enough to still use).
Here's an unrelated note: I observed that one of my distributor hold-down nuts is missing. Obviously gone for some time, the stud is fully rusted/corroded. I need to clean it and find another nut to secure it. I suppose this could provide just enough play in the distributor to wreak havoc with my ignition. Thoughts??
Our 5th annual Austin City Limits Music Festival begins tomorrow and I'm fully committed to the three-day event. I probably won't have enough time nor clear thoughts to get much work done
Feel free to add any other comments.
Thanks,
Brian
#4
09-19-2006, 03:03 PM
RE: '98 2.5 w/#1 & #5 misfire; replaced all plugs & wires, now idle is worse!
i found that if you go to your local gm dealer you can get 2 cans of top engine cleaner. it works very well, it loosens stuck valves wich is where your build up is coming from, and thoroughly cleans the whole inside of your engine. what you want to do is start your engine and let it warm to running temp, unplug air diverter sensor and hoses connected to air diverter and air cleaner, slow but not too slow pour in one 3/4 of one can into the end of the air intake hose so it runs into the intake manifold, make sure not to stall your engine, then pour in remaining fluid and stall the engine. then kill the engine and let sit for 15-30 minutes, repeat with can 2, if your not skepticle now you will be, now that you have poured both cans of top engine cleaner in fill the 2 cans with water, slowly as to not stall the engine pour in one can of water at a time.let your engine run for about 2-3 minutes. then let it sit for 2 or 3 hours then rev the engine up to about 5000rpm or higher a few times,and let sit over night,ok before i go further the chemicals in the can clean your engine but when mixed with water and let dried it crystalizes all the "gunk" in the engine. and im ahead of my self here. the very first thing you do is get the stuff for an oil change then follow the rest of the directions. and after you change the oil the next morning run the engine and rev it, reving the engine blows all the crystalized "crap" to blow out the exhaust, and you will need to change your oil again after 1500 miles i recommend using a fram extragaurd or better filter for both oil changes and castrol 20w 50 non synthetic.
i never would have thought this could help but it really did
I USED THIS ON A TRUCK THAT HAD NO GO NOW ITS LKE NEW (1988 FORD RANGER 2.3L 4CYL.)
i never would have thought this could help but it really did
I USED THIS ON A TRUCK THAT HAD NO GO NOW ITS LKE NEW (1988 FORD RANGER 2.3L 4CYL.)
#5
09-20-2006, 02:50 AM
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location:
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: '98 2.5 w/#1 & #5 misfire; replaced all plugs & wires, now idle is worse!
Thanks for your information about the engine cleaner from GM. I was told of others, but none involve pouring water into the cylinders (granted the engine's internal heat will vaporize most of it). Still, I will research this product a little further and probably search for more testimonials.
Thanks,
Brian
Thanks,
Brian
#6
09-20-2006, 07:43 AM
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 2,305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: '98 2.5 w/#1 & #5 misfire; replaced all plugs & wires, now idle is worse!
That's similar to MCCC or Seafoam method. Just without the water. This was done in a turbo car, so disregard the plug types
Here's another one...
Notice the plug for GMs cleaner?
I never went that far myself. I just let Seafoam get sipped up by the intake. It smoked up the entire area in white smoke and afterwards, there were puffs of white smoke for a few miles but it helped a lot in the long run. I didn't do the overnight sitting but if you do let it sit overnight, make sure to either suck it out of the chambers or remove the plugs and other stated items, then crank the motor...make sure no one is standing above the spark plug hole either.
Parts Needed: Buy a couple cans of “Mopar combustion chamber conditioner†and have the right plugs on hand. NGK BPR7ES plugs are best used in cars having moderate to high levels of mods, and BPR6ES are best for stock or lightly modded engines.
I technically performed 3 different cleanings. They are best done all at the same time. Here are the instructions I followed:
1. To clean off carbon that has fouled the valves (I believe it causes misfiring and power loss by momentarily absorbing the fuel as it is injected, but I could be wrong), start with a warm engine. Unplug the PCV hose (not the breather hose) at the valve cover end and stick a small funnel in the hose. Start the car (it will try to stall due to this huge vacuum leak) and with a helper or your gloved hand on the throttle body spring pack keep the idle around 1200-1500. Spray the conditioner into the funnel; the intake manifold vacuum will suck it in. You may have smoke out the tailpipe during this, and your idle will try even harder to drop. Its important to not rev during this, keep it under 1500! Use 1 to 1.5 cans. Shut off the engine and wait 10 minutes (while waiting remove the plugs for cleaning, they’ll probably be filthy with dissolved crud). Reconnect the PCV hose and clamp. Start the car and idle for 10 minutes, take a short gentle drive, and then resume normal driving.
*To give an idea, it took me about 10 minutes to administer 1 can of conditioner- I would spray a shot then wait 10 or 15 seconds*
2. To de-gum the piston rings, remove the plugs and spray half a can of conditioner (divided evenly) into the cylinders- its probably best to park on a flat surface. Ideally, leave that overnight with plugs reinstalled or rags stuffed into the spark plug wells. If you don’t have all night then leave it sit as long as you can (This procedure is probably not worth the effort unless you have at least several hours). Important-Remove any excess conditioner (siphon it out or crank over for a couple seconds to eject excess out the open plug holes) to prevent hydro-lock. Reinstall plugs, idle till warm, then change oil, as the conditioner will have seeped down through the rings.
3. Right before an oil change, engine oil flush (follow directions on can) or a half quart of 7176 ATF (with engine already warm) added into the engine oil will help dissolve varnish that may be on the valve train. Idle for about 10 minutes before draining, and don’t drive with these additives in the crankcase.
I technically performed 3 different cleanings. They are best done all at the same time. Here are the instructions I followed:
1. To clean off carbon that has fouled the valves (I believe it causes misfiring and power loss by momentarily absorbing the fuel as it is injected, but I could be wrong), start with a warm engine. Unplug the PCV hose (not the breather hose) at the valve cover end and stick a small funnel in the hose. Start the car (it will try to stall due to this huge vacuum leak) and with a helper or your gloved hand on the throttle body spring pack keep the idle around 1200-1500. Spray the conditioner into the funnel; the intake manifold vacuum will suck it in. You may have smoke out the tailpipe during this, and your idle will try even harder to drop. Its important to not rev during this, keep it under 1500! Use 1 to 1.5 cans. Shut off the engine and wait 10 minutes (while waiting remove the plugs for cleaning, they’ll probably be filthy with dissolved crud). Reconnect the PCV hose and clamp. Start the car and idle for 10 minutes, take a short gentle drive, and then resume normal driving.
*To give an idea, it took me about 10 minutes to administer 1 can of conditioner- I would spray a shot then wait 10 or 15 seconds*
2. To de-gum the piston rings, remove the plugs and spray half a can of conditioner (divided evenly) into the cylinders- its probably best to park on a flat surface. Ideally, leave that overnight with plugs reinstalled or rags stuffed into the spark plug wells. If you don’t have all night then leave it sit as long as you can (This procedure is probably not worth the effort unless you have at least several hours). Important-Remove any excess conditioner (siphon it out or crank over for a couple seconds to eject excess out the open plug holes) to prevent hydro-lock. Reinstall plugs, idle till warm, then change oil, as the conditioner will have seeped down through the rings.
3. Right before an oil change, engine oil flush (follow directions on can) or a half quart of 7176 ATF (with engine already warm) added into the engine oil will help dissolve varnish that may be on the valve train. Idle for about 10 minutes before draining, and don’t drive with these additives in the crankcase.
Well - I had nasty hesitation just about all the time. It sure seemed
like all the time to me. The car was starting to really tick me off!
I finally went ahead and tried that Carbon cleaning trick and it worked
wonders! I recommend it to anyone who is having problems and suspects a
faulty knock sensor. Save some money and try this trick. I just followed
the procedure that is on the following page:
http://www.outreach.psu.edu/users/res122/DSM/
That is Ed Spicer's method, recommended by Pete Paraska.
I first let the engine inhale the conditioner through the pcv hose. Then
changed the plugs. The old ones looked NASTY! I was surprised they were
still firing after that. No - they looked fine before the cleaning
process. I drove around and noticed large improvements. Than I went
ahead and let the pistons soke over night with the stuff. By the way - I
sprayed the cold conditioner on hot pistons. I paused and wondered
whether I was changing the heat treatment of the pistons. Then I figured
the stuff was so foamy that it couldn't conduct enough heat away quick
enough to cause problems. Was I quenching the piston tops? I'm not sure
but I have no problems so far. I think it might have helped get the
carbon off better since they were hot. I performed all three of ED's steps
right after eachother. I used Gunk motor flush in the oil. A word of
warning - the car was VERY HARD TO START! I left the plugs off, pulled
the MPI fuse on the battery + terminal, let the engine crank all the crap
out of the cylinders to prevent hydrolock. Most of the liquid had seeped
through the rings in the 18 hours I let it sit. When I reinstalled the
new plugs, it took about 10 minutes to get it to start. I would crank and
fiddle with the pedal forever. I think it helped when I floored the pedal
while cranking to get more air pushing the liquid residue out. It finally
started (I was worried) and its ran AWESOME since.
I can just barely notice some sluggishness sometimes. I plan to do the
procedure again soon to try to get closer to perfection. I think the key
was the overnight soak. Anyone with any hesitation needs to do this.
It's cheap and may solve all of your problems. My plugs used to be
nearly white with some * speckled egg * appearance. That is a sign of
knock. I never knew why. But now I am conviced that the carbon build up
retains heat and acts like a glow plug in the cylinder. The fuel/air
preignites and if timed right, causes detonation too. The preignited
flame startes spreading and then the proper sparked flame propogates
toward it and they squeeeze the gas in between and cause it to detonate
violently. Thats' all I have to say about that.
Good luck my fellow crazed boosters!
Jeff Michael
P.S. I'm going to try GM's Mr. Goodwrench Combustion chamber cleaner next
time. It's been a week of MUCH better performance so far!
like all the time to me. The car was starting to really tick me off!
I finally went ahead and tried that Carbon cleaning trick and it worked
wonders! I recommend it to anyone who is having problems and suspects a
faulty knock sensor. Save some money and try this trick. I just followed
the procedure that is on the following page:
http://www.outreach.psu.edu/users/res122/DSM/
That is Ed Spicer's method, recommended by Pete Paraska.
I first let the engine inhale the conditioner through the pcv hose. Then
changed the plugs. The old ones looked NASTY! I was surprised they were
still firing after that. No - they looked fine before the cleaning
process. I drove around and noticed large improvements. Than I went
ahead and let the pistons soke over night with the stuff. By the way - I
sprayed the cold conditioner on hot pistons. I paused and wondered
whether I was changing the heat treatment of the pistons. Then I figured
the stuff was so foamy that it couldn't conduct enough heat away quick
enough to cause problems. Was I quenching the piston tops? I'm not sure
but I have no problems so far. I think it might have helped get the
carbon off better since they were hot. I performed all three of ED's steps
right after eachother. I used Gunk motor flush in the oil. A word of
warning - the car was VERY HARD TO START! I left the plugs off, pulled
the MPI fuse on the battery + terminal, let the engine crank all the crap
out of the cylinders to prevent hydrolock. Most of the liquid had seeped
through the rings in the 18 hours I let it sit. When I reinstalled the
new plugs, it took about 10 minutes to get it to start. I would crank and
fiddle with the pedal forever. I think it helped when I floored the pedal
while cranking to get more air pushing the liquid residue out. It finally
started (I was worried) and its ran AWESOME since.
I can just barely notice some sluggishness sometimes. I plan to do the
procedure again soon to try to get closer to perfection. I think the key
was the overnight soak. Anyone with any hesitation needs to do this.
It's cheap and may solve all of your problems. My plugs used to be
nearly white with some * speckled egg * appearance. That is a sign of
knock. I never knew why. But now I am conviced that the carbon build up
retains heat and acts like a glow plug in the cylinder. The fuel/air
preignites and if timed right, causes detonation too. The preignited
flame startes spreading and then the proper sparked flame propogates
toward it and they squeeeze the gas in between and cause it to detonate
violently. Thats' all I have to say about that.
Good luck my fellow crazed boosters!
Jeff Michael
P.S. I'm going to try GM's Mr. Goodwrench Combustion chamber cleaner next
time. It's been a week of MUCH better performance so far!
I never went that far myself. I just let Seafoam get sipped up by the intake. It smoked up the entire area in white smoke and afterwards, there were puffs of white smoke for a few miles but it helped a lot in the long run. I didn't do the overnight sitting but if you do let it sit overnight, make sure to either suck it out of the chambers or remove the plugs and other stated items, then crank the motor...make sure no one is standing above the spark plug hole either.
#7
09-21-2006, 02:04 AM
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location:
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: '98 2.5 w/#1 & #5 misfire; replaced all plugs & wires, now idle is worse!
Thanks again, SC97! You've saved me lots of time searching and I'm committed to the Sea Foam flush. However, it still must wait since I want a full day to clean, clean and replace the distributor cap, too (did I mention "clean"?). That weekend is 10/7-10/8. I hope I don't break something internal before then. My idle is still sketchy at-best and I've learned a two-foot deceleration dance just to keep things idling! I swear, my '68 el Camino was durable as hell. I never raced it since it was a passive V8, but for the most part, she was very steady during our 4+ years together. On a separate note, she probably did her fair share of contaminating the atmosphere...
Thanks again,
B.
[IMG]local://upfiles/44209/DDBA202AB2254F81BA2CEBADE5DF241E.jpg[/IMG]
Thanks again,
B.
[IMG]local://upfiles/44209/DDBA202AB2254F81BA2CEBADE5DF241E.jpg[/IMG]
Trending Topics
#8
09-22-2006, 08:18 AM
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 2,305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#9
10-05-2006, 01:19 AM
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location:
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: '98 2.5 w/#1 & #5 misfire; replaced all plugs & wires, now idle is worse!
Last night, I completely removed my '98's 2.5 distributor cap, then brushed and sprayed the cap & rotor contacts. No improvements, but I had my fingers crossed until I can replace the cap & rotor early next week. My exhaust condition smells rich, but that should coincide with my scan-indicated misfire on two cylinders.
So that I might browse other sections of this forum for similar symptoms, please list other models that use the same engine as my '98 2.5 auto. I'll search for other explanations from those users & moderators.
Thanks,
Brian
So that I might browse other sections of this forum for similar symptoms, please list other models that use the same engine as my '98 2.5 auto. I'll search for other explanations from those users & moderators.
Thanks,
Brian
#10
10-05-2006, 03:13 AM
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 2,305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts