All Electric Fan Swap + Much More
#21
06-11-2009, 11:38 PM
So if you dont use a controller... how do you expect to CONTROL each of the functions needed for the fan for ON, OFF, Startup Delay, Low power to high power, AC trigger startup, manual on and manual off? Personally, I'll take a clean, working $97 professional controller over a hand full of failure points self wired as a series of drug store relays, wires splices, tons of connections and wild guesses.
The CFM data on the fans I reviewed is all over the net. Google is your friend especially on the Taurus, Viper and Mark VIII fans. I have never seen any 5000+ CFM statements regarding any fan I considered (the 3 abouve plus the Flex-a-lite.)
My setup is working fine. Humidity is in the 80% range here and rising. That's the only thing rising. The needle is stable and the D is cool. Nearly 800 miles on my setup so far. Knock on wood.
I researched my fan install for 2 years and have dozens of links to trace my details from. I was ready for the install and set with all the details and research needed to make this work.
What people always seem to forget is that this is a Durango thread. I have no idea how specifics of my install would work on another make, model, etc. However... I am certain my setup works for my Durango. After doing this and getting it all completed (nearly 33 hours of labor from start to dressed up finish)... for a 5.9L 2000 4x4, I have the gold standard for fan swaps IMHO. How fans work for others? Dunno/don't care honestly. How it works for the Durango, I care a lot both for my personal setup and for anyone I personally provide advise for. I strive to give quality specific details Durango related. All other makes and models... my details are only generalities.
As for my preparedness... how about these from install day? May these photos (and my general Durango thread here My Truck - IndyDurango) show any naysayer what a Durango that is taken care of can do and look like with over 203,000 miles and counting. I'm fairly set and sure I am okay on my fan install.
With all that said... Hutch, I read through your post and all 11 pages. I would never consider a fan that ONLY claimed to push 2100CFM. The 2100CFM IIRC is the amount you say Hayden recommends. Not having just fallen off the truck, I understand that manufacturer numbers and reality numbers often don't match. With that said, I am also certain that the Viper, Mark VIII, FAL and Taurus fans ALL push over 2100 CFM in real world use regardless of their stated numbers. Thus by your data, all and each would be sufficient to cool the Durango.
If you need Durango related actual results, let me know. I would be happy to contribute real world working and actual data.
Pals,
IndyDurango
The CFM data on the fans I reviewed is all over the net. Google is your friend especially on the Taurus, Viper and Mark VIII fans. I have never seen any 5000+ CFM statements regarding any fan I considered (the 3 abouve plus the Flex-a-lite.)
My setup is working fine. Humidity is in the 80% range here and rising. That's the only thing rising. The needle is stable and the D is cool. Nearly 800 miles on my setup so far. Knock on wood.
I researched my fan install for 2 years and have dozens of links to trace my details from. I was ready for the install and set with all the details and research needed to make this work.
What people always seem to forget is that this is a Durango thread. I have no idea how specifics of my install would work on another make, model, etc. However... I am certain my setup works for my Durango. After doing this and getting it all completed (nearly 33 hours of labor from start to dressed up finish)... for a 5.9L 2000 4x4, I have the gold standard for fan swaps IMHO. How fans work for others? Dunno/don't care honestly. How it works for the Durango, I care a lot both for my personal setup and for anyone I personally provide advise for. I strive to give quality specific details Durango related. All other makes and models... my details are only generalities.
As for my preparedness... how about these from install day? May these photos (and my general Durango thread here My Truck - IndyDurango) show any naysayer what a Durango that is taken care of can do and look like with over 203,000 miles and counting. I'm fairly set and sure I am okay on my fan install.
With all that said... Hutch, I read through your post and all 11 pages. I would never consider a fan that ONLY claimed to push 2100CFM. The 2100CFM IIRC is the amount you say Hayden recommends. Not having just fallen off the truck, I understand that manufacturer numbers and reality numbers often don't match. With that said, I am also certain that the Viper, Mark VIII, FAL and Taurus fans ALL push over 2100 CFM in real world use regardless of their stated numbers. Thus by your data, all and each would be sufficient to cool the Durango.
If you need Durango related actual results, let me know. I would be happy to contribute real world working and actual data.
Pals,
IndyDurango
Last edited by IndyDurango; 06-11-2009 at 11:49 PM.
#22
06-11-2009, 11:59 PM
Why does the Mark VIII need to move air? Why did Ford spend millions of development dollars on blade design, etc?
Well... one look at the aero style showing airflow slips right over the Mark VIII and realizing it was powered by a 5.0L motor, and seeing the tiny-no air flow-grille in front of the radiator shows you why Ford developed a 4000+ CFM fan.
No amount of personal research will out strip the tens of millions Ford spent on design and development.
Take a look under the hood on the Viper too. The fan needs to move air as max as possible because it gets very little air to work with.
IndyD
Well... one look at the aero style showing airflow slips right over the Mark VIII and realizing it was powered by a 5.0L motor, and seeing the tiny-no air flow-grille in front of the radiator shows you why Ford developed a 4000+ CFM fan.
No amount of personal research will out strip the tens of millions Ford spent on design and development.
Take a look under the hood on the Viper too. The fan needs to move air as max as possible because it gets very little air to work with.
IndyD
Last edited by IndyDurango; 06-12-2009 at 01:59 AM.
#23
06-12-2009, 12:06 AM
#24
06-12-2009, 09:14 AM
Record Breaker
"Personally, I'll take a clean, working $97 professional controller over a hand full of failure points self wired as a series of drug store relays, wires splices, tons of connections and wild guesses." Hey!!! Is that a shot on me?? I guess so cause I admit it, I did all that!...LOL...LOL...LOL... But I was man enough to own up to it and get me a VSC (should come next Mon).
200,000+ miles??? HOLY SH*T!!!!!! I'm thinking about driving down to Indy so you can get my D to go that far!!!
So Indy... when you gonna hook up that John Deere back there?.....
200,000+ miles??? HOLY SH*T!!!!!! I'm thinking about driving down to Indy so you can get my D to go that far!!!
So Indy... when you gonna hook up that John Deere back there?.....
#25
06-12-2009, 11:17 AM
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Let me just post a response to everything you said. Let me be clear about something, I'm not knocking you or your install, ok? I believe you have some understanding of this and you've done as much research as you could get your hands on.
Here is my criticism. I too, have looked at google searches to see what's out there. I can tell you, 99% of what I've seen is crap. So that being said, understand the statements I'm making are off of years of hands on research and knowledge of airflow testing on literally, 1000's of fans. I hold a national license to do what I do, and also keep in mind, when I start putting up numbers in the next couple weeks saying manufacturers are lying, I'm very confident in my education and knowledge to know that I can become liable and subject to litigation at that point. I'm that confident of my education and expertise in this stuff.
Any published recomendations for a small block by companies who are LIABLE TO SUIT if their information is incorrect, list 2500 cfm max as a general guideline for small blocks. Why I give the site I did such credence for 2100 cfm, is they are the only manufacture to admit their fans move less when installed. When you look at that guideline, 2500 cfm quickly drops to closer to 2,000.
So understand, when I believe the spec of about 2,000 cfm, it's not only based on my own personal testing of my Ram (and from what I've read up on Durango's, all my work will transfer over no issue) it's because companies who are subject to millions of dollars in law suits state it as fact. So that's why I will believe that to someone just saying they need 3500 cfm.
Now, to your point about why did Ford develop a 4,000+ cfm fan for their cars. They didn't. You aren't understanding most of your google numbers are based off little or no testing, and at '0' restriction. As restriction increases, fan flow decreases. What you pointed out is dead on, small grill openings and aerodynamics make the fan have to work harder to pull air. Therefor, they had to design a fan that would bring in 2000-2500 cfm of air against that restriction...so it would have been rated at 2300 cfm @ .7" s.p., for instance. When you take the fan out of that, and measure it against 'nothing', it might flow significantly more then that, but because of being designed to work against .7 restriction, the motor is generally oversized and it will pull significantly more amps.
So for the manufacturers to spend 'millions' of dollars on designing a fan blade, understand they are designing that exact blade for that specific application. Did Ford spend millions to make sure their fan would work perfectly in a Dodge Durango? Of course not.
Gold Standard: Lets assume you are moving the airflow you think you are. You then have a fan that will work, however pulling significantly more amperage then required and at nearly double the airflow you need. You fixed this fact by spending, let's say double, on a controller to over correct for your fan choice. I'm not saying no to controllers, mind you, I'm saying we have a different gold standard. Your 'cheap controllers sloppy wires' is more an result of poor install, I've have seen no real data to indicate lesser priced controllers are subject to a higher failure rate. Also, believe you have an aftermarket radiator? If so, and it's properly designed, it offers less restriction then stock, therefor the airflows you have in your truck will be higher then anyone else installing the exact same set up in a durango with a stock radiator.
My gold standard is as follows: New fan install, thermostat controlled for under $150, that's easy to trouble shoot when you have issues. Since your controller does multiple items, which frankly aren't necessary for a properly sized fan, it's fairly specialized, and if you do have issues, that much more to figure out. I want a simple set up that anyone can run to the local auto parts store to buy a replacement part for. Should yours fail, you have to wait a minimum of overnight to replace? Controls for a properly sized fan would be: temperature based start/stop, ac relay, manual bypass.
I can say this, on my gold standard, it would require a nice install job to make it clean, but it would work just as well, and pull less amps as your set up. Your controller seems more 'plug and play', but to give you credit, based on your pics, I'm confident your craftsmanship and attention to detail, you'd be able to do it.
So finally, again, I'm not trying to trash your install. I believe you researched to the best of your abilities, but unfortuneatly for you, the internet is full of b.s. For the record, I'm as **** as you are...lol, and prior to being in this industry I probably would have done the same thing, with the same result. What I'm going to make a point of doing is commenting on the electric fan threads as they come up, to help clear up the garbage you see on the net. I feel I'm uniquely qualified to do it, and hope it doesn't rub people the wrong way because I'm trying to help everyone.
One real question for you though. I know the 17hp boost numbers from the electric fan install are fake, and based off a single instance where the manufacturers were able to document that boost. It's not like that among most vehicles. I'm wondering if you noticed anything related to performance when you made the switch?
Here is my criticism. I too, have looked at google searches to see what's out there. I can tell you, 99% of what I've seen is crap. So that being said, understand the statements I'm making are off of years of hands on research and knowledge of airflow testing on literally, 1000's of fans. I hold a national license to do what I do, and also keep in mind, when I start putting up numbers in the next couple weeks saying manufacturers are lying, I'm very confident in my education and knowledge to know that I can become liable and subject to litigation at that point. I'm that confident of my education and expertise in this stuff.
Any published recomendations for a small block by companies who are LIABLE TO SUIT if their information is incorrect, list 2500 cfm max as a general guideline for small blocks. Why I give the site I did such credence for 2100 cfm, is they are the only manufacture to admit their fans move less when installed. When you look at that guideline, 2500 cfm quickly drops to closer to 2,000.
So understand, when I believe the spec of about 2,000 cfm, it's not only based on my own personal testing of my Ram (and from what I've read up on Durango's, all my work will transfer over no issue) it's because companies who are subject to millions of dollars in law suits state it as fact. So that's why I will believe that to someone just saying they need 3500 cfm.
Now, to your point about why did Ford develop a 4,000+ cfm fan for their cars. They didn't. You aren't understanding most of your google numbers are based off little or no testing, and at '0' restriction. As restriction increases, fan flow decreases. What you pointed out is dead on, small grill openings and aerodynamics make the fan have to work harder to pull air. Therefor, they had to design a fan that would bring in 2000-2500 cfm of air against that restriction...so it would have been rated at 2300 cfm @ .7" s.p., for instance. When you take the fan out of that, and measure it against 'nothing', it might flow significantly more then that, but because of being designed to work against .7 restriction, the motor is generally oversized and it will pull significantly more amps.
So for the manufacturers to spend 'millions' of dollars on designing a fan blade, understand they are designing that exact blade for that specific application. Did Ford spend millions to make sure their fan would work perfectly in a Dodge Durango? Of course not.
Gold Standard: Lets assume you are moving the airflow you think you are. You then have a fan that will work, however pulling significantly more amperage then required and at nearly double the airflow you need. You fixed this fact by spending, let's say double, on a controller to over correct for your fan choice. I'm not saying no to controllers, mind you, I'm saying we have a different gold standard. Your 'cheap controllers sloppy wires' is more an result of poor install, I've have seen no real data to indicate lesser priced controllers are subject to a higher failure rate. Also, believe you have an aftermarket radiator? If so, and it's properly designed, it offers less restriction then stock, therefor the airflows you have in your truck will be higher then anyone else installing the exact same set up in a durango with a stock radiator.
My gold standard is as follows: New fan install, thermostat controlled for under $150, that's easy to trouble shoot when you have issues. Since your controller does multiple items, which frankly aren't necessary for a properly sized fan, it's fairly specialized, and if you do have issues, that much more to figure out. I want a simple set up that anyone can run to the local auto parts store to buy a replacement part for. Should yours fail, you have to wait a minimum of overnight to replace? Controls for a properly sized fan would be: temperature based start/stop, ac relay, manual bypass.
I can say this, on my gold standard, it would require a nice install job to make it clean, but it would work just as well, and pull less amps as your set up. Your controller seems more 'plug and play', but to give you credit, based on your pics, I'm confident your craftsmanship and attention to detail, you'd be able to do it.
So finally, again, I'm not trying to trash your install. I believe you researched to the best of your abilities, but unfortuneatly for you, the internet is full of b.s. For the record, I'm as **** as you are...lol, and prior to being in this industry I probably would have done the same thing, with the same result. What I'm going to make a point of doing is commenting on the electric fan threads as they come up, to help clear up the garbage you see on the net. I feel I'm uniquely qualified to do it, and hope it doesn't rub people the wrong way because I'm trying to help everyone.
One real question for you though. I know the 17hp boost numbers from the electric fan install are fake, and based off a single instance where the manufacturers were able to document that boost. It's not like that among most vehicles. I'm wondering if you noticed anything related to performance when you made the switch?
#26
06-12-2009, 01:06 PM
hutch,
Its all good. Some say tomato, some say tomaato. Like I mentioned in our PMs, when it's Durango related... and you can focus on hundreds of articles from Dakotas and Durangos... and then overlap the Ford guys, the Ram guys, etc... I'm good to go. In the end it works and it's clean. What else is there? Pals!
Dan,
ROTFLMAO. Not a slam at you specifically my friend. I can't tell you have many (most) of the threads that are out there for doing the fan setup with a big handful of parts and wires. Thus... you are off the hook as just one of the many. Need any advise on the VSC, let me know! It's quick, it's clean, it's easy and it works.
PS your fan should ship tomorrow or Monday.
IndyDurango
Its all good. Some say tomato, some say tomaato. Like I mentioned in our PMs, when it's Durango related... and you can focus on hundreds of articles from Dakotas and Durangos... and then overlap the Ford guys, the Ram guys, etc... I'm good to go. In the end it works and it's clean. What else is there? Pals!
Dan,
ROTFLMAO. Not a slam at you specifically my friend. I can't tell you have many (most) of the threads that are out there for doing the fan setup with a big handful of parts and wires. Thus... you are off the hook as just one of the many. Need any advise on the VSC, let me know! It's quick, it's clean, it's easy and it works.
PS your fan should ship tomorrow or Monday.
IndyDurango
#28
06-12-2009, 09:26 PM
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I'm curious too. I was going to grab one from the yard today, couldn't find the lincoln one, so figured I'd try one of those to get airflow readings on them. Noticed that most all of them had a smaller, dual fan set up. They were v6's though, so not sure what year/motor you found your fan in.
#29
06-13-2009, 01:18 AM
Roughly the 86-96 Taurus/Sable/Continental
Known as the Ford 8C607 fan, Part #F4DZ-8C607-AC
Aftermarkets are here at NAPA:
http://www.napaonline.com/masterpage...iator+Fan+Assy
and here with the DCControls controller:
http://www.dccontrol.com/fans.htm
and here online:
http://www.go-part.com/9295-ford-tau...d=FO31151143fy
and
http://shopping.aol.com/1990-95-ford...31832/97525620
and
http://www.am-autoparts.com/AM/Fans/...ahooShoppingSF
All matches the Taurus exactly.
Professional details:
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...cfan/index.php
IndyD
Known as the Ford 8C607 fan, Part #F4DZ-8C607-AC
Aftermarkets are here at NAPA:
http://www.napaonline.com/masterpage...iator+Fan+Assy
and here with the DCControls controller:
http://www.dccontrol.com/fans.htm
and here online:
http://www.go-part.com/9295-ford-tau...d=FO31151143fy
and
http://shopping.aol.com/1990-95-ford...31832/97525620
and
http://www.am-autoparts.com/AM/Fans/...ahooShoppingSF
All matches the Taurus exactly.
Professional details:
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...cfan/index.php
IndyD
Last edited by IndyDurango; 06-13-2009 at 01:46 AM.
#30
06-13-2009, 10:39 AM
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Cool, thanks for the links. Think I was looking at newer Tauri then. They must have switched over to the dual fan set up after this run. Did find one with a similar blade design in a Continental, but the blade looked offset in the shroud, and remembered yours appearing to be more centered.
Love that they just let the car idle for an hour in miserable heat, a.c. cranked, to test the fan set up. Far and away the best way to test it if you don't have specialized tools, since they aren't utilized as much at highway speeds.
Love that they just let the car idle for an hour in miserable heat, a.c. cranked, to test the fan set up. Far and away the best way to test it if you don't have specialized tools, since they aren't utilized as much at highway speeds.
Last edited by hutch1973; 06-13-2009 at 10:42 AM.