Wheeling a fullsize
#291
03-05-2014, 11:05 PM
Veteran
#292
03-05-2014, 11:20 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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I've heard you lose a lot of low end torque with an M1, this true? Are there any differences with stock other than no plenum and less restriction?
#293
03-05-2014, 11:51 PM
Record Breaker
When I went from a 35" to a 38" tire I noticed a major improvement in how my Jeep rode and how well it would hook up in most situations. I feel the 38" tire is the best for my rig and the way it is setup. I have a PSC steering box and pump on my Jeep. I went with the AirGap manifold at the time because when I was looking the M1 was expensive and hard to find.
Zero air pressure trying out my new dual beadlocks & breaking in the sidewalls.
He has 37" tires on his Jeep too. Air pressure, throttle control, and a little luck all play a part.
Zero air pressure trying out my new dual beadlocks & breaking in the sidewalls.
He has 37" tires on his Jeep too. Air pressure, throttle control, and a little luck all play a part.
Last edited by Wildman4x4nut; 03-06-2014 at 12:13 AM.
#294
03-06-2014, 10:17 AM
When I went from a 35" to a 38" tire I noticed a major improvement in how my Jeep rode and how well it would hook up in most situations. I feel the 38" tire is the best for my rig and the way it is setup. I have a PSC steering box and pump on my Jeep. I went with the AirGap manifold at the time because when I was looking the M1 was expensive and hard to find.
Zero air pressure trying out my new dual beadlocks & breaking in the sidewalls.
He has 37" tires on his Jeep too. Air pressure, throttle control, and a little luck all play a part.
Zero air pressure trying out my new dual beadlocks & breaking in the sidewalls.
He has 37" tires on his Jeep too. Air pressure, throttle control, and a little luck all play a part.
I have lived in my current residence for about a year and a half now, last winter wasn't so bad, very little snow. This year, we are getting a more typical michigan winter. The road in front of my house doesn't get plowed as well as it should, and the 'hidden ditch' has made me a fair bit of money pulling folks out of it.
So far this year, it has been four trucks, one car, and two tractors..... (farm tractors) I never ask for money, but, if it's offered, I will only say "no" once. 
Its kind of amusing how a surface that looks flat, can suck you in, and refuse to let you out.
I pulled the same stunt in my old S-10 Blazer. Took a turn hoping for a shortcut, which wasn't..... figgered "Well, the road I need is 20 feet that way.... so, tried to cross what I though was a field. Nope. 10 foot deep ditch, concealed by snow..... I knew I was in trouble when the front end sank, and the world disappeared. I was less than 10 feet from the road, so, walked home, got my wife, and her full-sized van, hooked a chain to the blazer, and pulled it out. (no snow on the road, so, good traction to be had there. Van pulled with no trouble.)
Lesson I learned here: Just because it LOOKS flat/driveable, does NOT imply that it is indeed flat.
#295
03-06-2014, 09:38 PM
Record Breaker
There is no best place... they're hard to find, so the best place will be the place that you do manage to find one... thing is, it wont be cheap, due to the scarcity.
From the Hughes site;
I have one on my 5.2... by itself, there was a little low end torque loss, but once I installed headers, I got it back, plus some.
I like it, but if your goal is low end torque and you don't plan on there supporting mods, I would go with a modified keg (as has been discussed in several build threads).
From the Hughes site;
Originally Posted by Hughes Engines.com
This intake, designed by Hughes Engines and manufactured by Edelbrock, is the best intake available for your 1996-2003 5.2 & 5.9 Dodge Magnum engine. Not only will it increase your horsepower it will also improve your mileage (if you're able to keep your foot out of it!). Now you can maintain all of the low end torque of the stock factory barrel style intake yet get the increased higher RPM horsepower you've been missing.
Direct replacement for all emission controlled OBDII equipped Magnum trucks (Most 1996 and newer 5.2 or 5.9).
May require some modifications for earlier model ,OBD1 equipped vehicles, and would be for Off-road use only.
We get a lot of questions from people in California as to if this intake meets California emission standards.
According to the California Department of Consumer Affairs Smog Check Reference Guide we see no reason that our intake would not be compliant on all OBDII equipped vehicles. Based on the following text from the CARB website, the Hughes Engines FI AirGap intake is exempt from requiring CARB certification.
As quoted from California Department of Consumer Affairs Smog Check Reference Guide Appendix G , page G-7.
"For the purposes of Smog Check Inspection, the following parts and emissions control changes are acceptable provided that all of the required emission controls are connected and functioning. When conducting a Smog Check Inspection, it is not necessary to check for a CARB Executive Order for the following:"
“Any intake manifold that includes provisions for the OE emission controls (EGR, TAC, carburetor, thermal switches, choke stove, exhaust cross-over etc.) The manifold must be marketed by the manufacturer for street use on emission controlled vehicles”
Direct replacement for all emission controlled OBDII equipped Magnum trucks (Most 1996 and newer 5.2 or 5.9).
May require some modifications for earlier model ,OBD1 equipped vehicles, and would be for Off-road use only.
We get a lot of questions from people in California as to if this intake meets California emission standards.
According to the California Department of Consumer Affairs Smog Check Reference Guide we see no reason that our intake would not be compliant on all OBDII equipped vehicles. Based on the following text from the CARB website, the Hughes Engines FI AirGap intake is exempt from requiring CARB certification.
As quoted from California Department of Consumer Affairs Smog Check Reference Guide Appendix G , page G-7.
"For the purposes of Smog Check Inspection, the following parts and emissions control changes are acceptable provided that all of the required emission controls are connected and functioning. When conducting a Smog Check Inspection, it is not necessary to check for a CARB Executive Order for the following:"
“Any intake manifold that includes provisions for the OE emission controls (EGR, TAC, carburetor, thermal switches, choke stove, exhaust cross-over etc.) The manifold must be marketed by the manufacturer for street use on emission controlled vehicles”
I have one on my 5.2... by itself, there was a little low end torque loss, but once I installed headers, I got it back, plus some.
I like it, but if your goal is low end torque and you don't plan on there supporting mods, I would go with a modified keg (as has been discussed in several build threads).
Last edited by Spillage; 03-06-2014 at 09:42 PM.
#296
03-06-2014, 10:49 PM
There has already been a thread discussing the M1 and the F1. Please continue it there or a new thread. https://dodgeforum.com/forum/2nd-gen...-manifold.html
Spillage, the portion you quoted from Hughes and CA CARB will never hold up at a smog shop that follows the regulations. Effectively, no EO number means it's a hardware fail. Previously the Hughes site actually had a link to the CARB site that went to a 404. Please don't mistake in that I'm knocking it, I'm just providing information when I called to discuss both intakes with the CARB office.
I'm disgusted with the CARB and other regulations here....
No one buys either of these intakes for torque... The loss/gain of torque is imperceptible. I've wheeled with a stock 318 on 1 tons and 40s with no issue and I feel it's irrelevant compared to other benefits.
I actually passed on the numbers, yet failed on the non-oem hardware.
Wildman -- are you still running those tires?
Spillage, the portion you quoted from Hughes and CA CARB will never hold up at a smog shop that follows the regulations. Effectively, no EO number means it's a hardware fail. Previously the Hughes site actually had a link to the CARB site that went to a 404. Please don't mistake in that I'm knocking it, I'm just providing information when I called to discuss both intakes with the CARB office.
I'm disgusted with the CARB and other regulations here....
No one buys either of these intakes for torque... The loss/gain of torque is imperceptible. I've wheeled with a stock 318 on 1 tons and 40s with no issue and I feel it's irrelevant compared to other benefits.
I actually passed on the numbers, yet failed on the non-oem hardware.
Wildman -- are you still running those tires?
#297
03-06-2014, 11:38 PM
Record Breaker
...the portion you quoted from Hughes and CA CARB will never hold up at a smog shop that follows the regulations. Effectively, no EO number means it's a hardware fail...
...I'm just providing information when I called to discuss both intakes with the CARB office...
...I actually passed on the numbers, yet failed on the non-oem hardware...
...I'm just providing information when I called to discuss both intakes with the CARB office...
...I actually passed on the numbers, yet failed on the non-oem hardware...
So it would seem clear that only if a manifold does not meet the requirements of Category I (have provision for all OE emissions equipment) that it is subject to Category II where an EO# is needed (to be checked).
Ref: CA Gov http://www.bar.ca.gov/80_BARResource...ce%20Guide.pdf
What did the CARB office say that contradicts their own guild-lines?
#298
03-07-2014, 12:20 AM
Spillage, you are easily mislead by Hughes as they (imo) are intending.
1. That document is a "guide". Meaning it is not actual regulation.
2. It's stated in the "guide" for intake manifold --
The manifold must be marketed by the manufacturer for street use on emission controlled vehicles.
Chrysler/Mopar does not market the M1 intake for street use on an emission controlled vehicle. There was a disclaimer of non-50 state legal that I found for the M1, ergo no EO number.
3. CA categorizes this under the Replacement Parts Guidelines Section -- http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/replace.htm
4. The OEM never characterized the M1 as a factory replacement. Hughes cannot claim that either. Both fall under aftermarket and also were developed for "performance" reasons.
The CARB office conversation:
Me: I have a factory hardware that utilizes all factory connects, sensors, etc. and remains functionally the same.
CARB: What is the EO?
Me: I can't find one...yet.
CARB: It is not legal until the vendor performs the necessary documents meeting CARB regulations.
Imo, Hughes is misleading. We, unfortunately, can't believe the vendor and instead need to verify ourselves with the actual regulating body. The vendor wants to sell a product....
Eff you for being in Florida.
1. That document is a "guide". Meaning it is not actual regulation.
2. It's stated in the "guide" for intake manifold --
The manifold must be marketed by the manufacturer for street use on emission controlled vehicles.
Chrysler/Mopar does not market the M1 intake for street use on an emission controlled vehicle. There was a disclaimer of non-50 state legal that I found for the M1, ergo no EO number.
3. CA categorizes this under the Replacement Parts Guidelines Section -- http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/replace.htm
Intake Manifolds
The manufacturer of replacement manifolds determines which of their models are considered replacements for original equipment. These replacement manifolds are then listed by vehicle year, make, model and engine size in the manufacturer's catalogue.
Replacement manifolds may be made of a different material than the original part, for example polished aluminium instead of cast iron, but the design of the casting must be the same. Any manifold not listed as replacement part by its manufacturer must have an Executive Order to be legal for street use.
Carburetor adapter plates are not legal unless they are an integral part of a replacement manifold.
The manufacturer of replacement manifolds determines which of their models are considered replacements for original equipment. These replacement manifolds are then listed by vehicle year, make, model and engine size in the manufacturer's catalogue.
Replacement manifolds may be made of a different material than the original part, for example polished aluminium instead of cast iron, but the design of the casting must be the same. Any manifold not listed as replacement part by its manufacturer must have an Executive Order to be legal for street use.
Carburetor adapter plates are not legal unless they are an integral part of a replacement manifold.
The CARB office conversation:
Me: I have a factory hardware that utilizes all factory connects, sensors, etc. and remains functionally the same.
CARB: What is the EO?
Me: I can't find one...yet.
CARB: It is not legal until the vendor performs the necessary documents meeting CARB regulations.
Imo, Hughes is misleading. We, unfortunately, can't believe the vendor and instead need to verify ourselves with the actual regulating body. The vendor wants to sell a product....
Eff you for being in Florida.
#299
03-07-2014, 01:56 AM
Record Breaker
NuK,
Yep I am still running them even still have a brand new one sitting in my garage. I bought them because I always had wanted to try out the TSL SX tires plus you can still get a Super Swamper in a 16.5 rim size. I had already planned on making Hummer beadlocks at the time. I had to replace the rims because the centers I bought failed on me. So I now have http://www.stazworks.com/ rims. I of course went with a 16.5 but they are 9.5" wide so a little wider than Hummer rims. When I finally wear these tires out I plan to try Pit Bulls next. They are the only two manufacturers that I know of that still make a 16.5 tire.
These are 38X12.5X16.5 if I hadn't said it before. I plan to get the 37" Rockers or if I win the lotto and get a Dana60 front axle maybe the 41" ones.
Last edited by Wildman4x4nut; 03-07-2014 at 02:08 AM.
#300
03-07-2014, 07:15 AM
Record Breaker
Spillage, you are easily mislead by Hughes as they (imo) are intending.
1. That document is a "guide". Meaning it is not actual regulation.
2. It's stated in the "guide" for intake manifold --
The manifold must be marketed by the manufacturer for street use on emission controlled vehicles.
Chrysler/Mopar does not market the M1 intake for street use on an emission controlled vehicle. There was a disclaimer of non-50 state legal that I found for the M1, ergo no EO number.
3. CA categorizes this under the Replacement Parts Guidelines Section -- http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/replace.htm
4. The OEM never characterized the M1 as a factory replacement. Hughes cannot claim that either. Both fall under aftermarket and also were developed for "performance" reasons.
The CARB office conversation:
Me: I have a factory hardware that utilizes all factory connects, sensors, etc. and remains functionally the same.
CARB: What is the EO?
Me: I can't find one...yet.
CARB: It is not legal until the vendor performs the necessary documents meeting CARB regulations.
Imo, Hughes is misleading. We, unfortunately, can't believe the vendor and instead need to verify ourselves with the actual regulating body. The vendor wants to sell a product....
Eff you for being in Florida.
1. That document is a "guide". Meaning it is not actual regulation.
2. It's stated in the "guide" for intake manifold --
The manifold must be marketed by the manufacturer for street use on emission controlled vehicles.
Chrysler/Mopar does not market the M1 intake for street use on an emission controlled vehicle. There was a disclaimer of non-50 state legal that I found for the M1, ergo no EO number.
3. CA categorizes this under the Replacement Parts Guidelines Section -- http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/replace.htm
4. The OEM never characterized the M1 as a factory replacement. Hughes cannot claim that either. Both fall under aftermarket and also were developed for "performance" reasons.
The CARB office conversation:
Me: I have a factory hardware that utilizes all factory connects, sensors, etc. and remains functionally the same.
CARB: What is the EO?
Me: I can't find one...yet.
CARB: It is not legal until the vendor performs the necessary documents meeting CARB regulations.
Imo, Hughes is misleading. We, unfortunately, can't believe the vendor and instead need to verify ourselves with the actual regulating body. The vendor wants to sell a product....
Eff you for being in Florida.
I had a look at the FL rules at one point... from memory the verbiage for aftermarket mods was something vague like "... designed with substantially the same intent as the OE item..."... so for exhausts, so long as you have a working Cat and O2's your OK, but since nobody checks...
And on that note, I'll happily take your eff'n comment.