Greetings from UK - Neon Problem
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Ok, Dave, done a little more thinking and a little more research. The only other thing it could be is a sticky governor valve, which can only be freed up by removing the valve body.
So, my further suggestion is to do as you planned....replace the speed sensor (though I'm fairly sure this will make no difference at all, so keep the old one for a spare if you do it), adjust the kickdown band, and drive it a bit more to see if something will free up. If it doesn't, then you should begin to prepare for pulling the pan and the valve body, as the only other malfunction that would cause the problems you're having would be the governor valve sticking.
So, my further suggestion is to do as you planned....replace the speed sensor (though I'm fairly sure this will make no difference at all, so keep the old one for a spare if you do it), adjust the kickdown band, and drive it a bit more to see if something will free up. If it doesn't, then you should begin to prepare for pulling the pan and the valve body, as the only other malfunction that would cause the problems you're having would be the governor valve sticking.
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I will never ever be upset at you, even if it turns out you was wrong which to be honest I doubt. If you ever fancy a trip to the UK I will be more than happy to have you here, and if we fix the car on the way then thats top dollor. In fact id really enjoy working on it. I dont want to give up but finance might force me to. You have been an absolute star and I will definatly give that a go tommorow if I am able to when its still light.
And yea tranny fluid here if its ATF+4 is VERY expensive. In fact most oil is these days unless your sticking it in a ford and dont care its gonna blow lol.
Chrysler wanted £12+Vat for a litre which to be fair isnt bad (about only thing that is resonable priced) and most auto outlets dont stock ATF+4 its mostly dextron.
And yea tranny fluid here if its ATF+4 is VERY expensive. In fact most oil is these days unless your sticking it in a ford and dont care its gonna blow lol.
Chrysler wanted £12+Vat for a litre which to be fair isnt bad (about only thing that is resonable priced) and most auto outlets dont stock ATF+4 its mostly dextron.
Dave, that price you quoted for tranny fluid actually made my eyes tear up a little...that's horrible, and I don't blame you for wanting to leave the pan on for as long as possible.
I don't know whether the band went out of adjustment "suddenly", but it can seem that way, certainly. When a band is even quite a ways out, it'll still grab and work, but you might notice the shifts are a little sloppy, but maybe not even that, if you don't drive hard. But once it gets to a point where it can no longer grab the outside of the drum (remember, this contains the forward clutch pack), it'll suddenly stop pulling at all until the band is adjusted properly.
On the other hand (and here's the sneaky bit on my part), if it's the servo that's stuck, I'm thinking that since the car only has 30k on it it isn't stuck hard and it could be, just possibly, if the stars are aligned properly and you're holding your mouth "just right" that when you tighten the band, it could move the servo (which is connected to the other end of the band by way of a linkage) just a bit, just a teensy, tiny bit, and it might free it up and make the transmission drive and shift normally again. I didn't mention this before because I was hoping that the Lucas oil stuff would raise the pressures enough to free it, if that's indeed the problem.
I still don't believe the band is broken because you're still getting some "thumps" when it tries to shift into 3rd (at least it appeared that way on the video), and if it were broken, it would do nothing but rev up and you'd never feel it try and engage into 3rd at all.
So, that's my take on it. And as I've said before, I could be wrong about all this entirely. I know automatic transmissions fairly well, and have rebuilt a good number of them without problems, but in my experience these are my best ideas. It could turn out to be the speed sensor that you're planning on changing, and I might have run you all over hell and creation for nothing. I surely hope not, I'd feel terrible and you'd no doubt be pissed off at me for a very long time, but if it does turn out to be the sensor, I'll be glad it didn't come to you pulling the pan on your tranny. By the way, in the event it comes to that, if you thoroughly clean your work area and the tranny pan, and get a large tray to catch the fluid, you can re-use it, so long as it doesn't become contaminated.
I'm going to talk to my mechanic buddy again, either later tonight or first thing AM, and get his further opinion. He has that nifty "AllData" that gives you a pretty good diagnostics routine and could give a better idea of what the problem might be than I can based on my experience with other transmissions.
Until then, keep this updated, please, every further bit of info will only help us figure out and fix the problem. It's a shame you're several thousand miles away, otherwise I'd drive my own crappy Neon to your house and we'd have this fixed inside of a couple of days, even if it required a complete rebuild.
P.S.
It's my understanding that when a speed sensor goes bad, the tranny goes into "limp home mode" and stays there, never trying to shift into certain gears at all. I don't know if this is the case or not, it's only what I've read in a few places. I'll think a little more and add to this if I come up with anything else, but for now I've got to run and pick my youngest boy up from the school.
I don't know whether the band went out of adjustment "suddenly", but it can seem that way, certainly. When a band is even quite a ways out, it'll still grab and work, but you might notice the shifts are a little sloppy, but maybe not even that, if you don't drive hard. But once it gets to a point where it can no longer grab the outside of the drum (remember, this contains the forward clutch pack), it'll suddenly stop pulling at all until the band is adjusted properly.
On the other hand (and here's the sneaky bit on my part), if it's the servo that's stuck, I'm thinking that since the car only has 30k on it it isn't stuck hard and it could be, just possibly, if the stars are aligned properly and you're holding your mouth "just right" that when you tighten the band, it could move the servo (which is connected to the other end of the band by way of a linkage) just a bit, just a teensy, tiny bit, and it might free it up and make the transmission drive and shift normally again. I didn't mention this before because I was hoping that the Lucas oil stuff would raise the pressures enough to free it, if that's indeed the problem.
I still don't believe the band is broken because you're still getting some "thumps" when it tries to shift into 3rd (at least it appeared that way on the video), and if it were broken, it would do nothing but rev up and you'd never feel it try and engage into 3rd at all.
So, that's my take on it. And as I've said before, I could be wrong about all this entirely. I know automatic transmissions fairly well, and have rebuilt a good number of them without problems, but in my experience these are my best ideas. It could turn out to be the speed sensor that you're planning on changing, and I might have run you all over hell and creation for nothing. I surely hope not, I'd feel terrible and you'd no doubt be pissed off at me for a very long time, but if it does turn out to be the sensor, I'll be glad it didn't come to you pulling the pan on your tranny. By the way, in the event it comes to that, if you thoroughly clean your work area and the tranny pan, and get a large tray to catch the fluid, you can re-use it, so long as it doesn't become contaminated.
I'm going to talk to my mechanic buddy again, either later tonight or first thing AM, and get his further opinion. He has that nifty "AllData" that gives you a pretty good diagnostics routine and could give a better idea of what the problem might be than I can based on my experience with other transmissions.
Until then, keep this updated, please, every further bit of info will only help us figure out and fix the problem. It's a shame you're several thousand miles away, otherwise I'd drive my own crappy Neon to your house and we'd have this fixed inside of a couple of days, even if it required a complete rebuild.
P.S.
It's my understanding that when a speed sensor goes bad, the tranny goes into "limp home mode" and stays there, never trying to shift into certain gears at all. I don't know if this is the case or not, it's only what I've read in a few places. I'll think a little more and add to this if I come up with anything else, but for now I've got to run and pick my youngest boy up from the school.
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I skipped a lot of these last posts, but anyways, the electronic transmissions do not have bands like the 3-speed hydraulic ones do. So...there is no band adjustment. Besides, to adjust the bands in those transmissions, you had to remove the valve body IIRC and adjust them internally. The only thing to adjust on the top of the 3-speed transmissions is the kickdown linkage.
I've already said what "hard code" means, more simply, but here is the full on definition since there still seems to be some question as to what it is:
Now, here's the part about intermittent codes, but note the specific mention of codes 50-54, which mintminty has:
This is from the people that designed and built the car, engine and transmission. I'd think something they say about the problems should be taken into consideration, and not guessing solutions for the incorrect transmission.
I've already said what "hard code" means, more simply, but here is the full on definition since there still seems to be some question as to what it is:
Any Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) that is set whenever the system or component is monitored is a HARD code. This means that the problem is there every time the Transmission Control System checks that system or component. Some codes will set immediately at start up and others will require a road test under specific conditions. It must be determined if a code is repeatable (Hard) or intermittent before attempting diagnosis.
A diagnostic trouble code that is not there every time the Transmission Control System checks the circuit or function is an a intermittent code. Some intermittent codes, such as codes P1684(12), P0891(14), P0888(15), P0725(18), P1694(19), P0871(21), P0846(22), P0841(24), P0706(28), P0120(29), P0750(41), P0755(42), P0760(43), P0765(44), P0715(56), P0720(57), P1794(58), P0951(70), P1799(74), P0884(76), P1687(77), and P1652(78) are caused by wiring or connector problems. However intermittent codes 50 - 54 are usually caused by intermittent hydraulic seal leakage in the clutch and/or accumulator circuits. Problems that come and go like this are the most difficult to diagnose, they must be looked for under the specific conditions that cause them.
Last edited by darthroush; Nov 16, 2011 at 02:46 AM.
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Yes, of course they have bands, moron, and they have to be adjusted. You are aware, aren't you, that this is a 2001 Neon, not a 2012 (which will probably still have bands)? Seriously, who told you they don't have bands and can't be adjusted? I can't believe you'd state something like that. If you don't know something, you should keep your mouth shut.
The procedures to adjust the bands were written directly from the factory service manual for the car he owns. He has the same transmission I have in my 2000 neon, and both my bands have been adjusted. Only one one of them do you need to pull the pan, but you do NOT need to pull the valve body to adjust either band.
I'm not trying to be a dick here, but I don't think you know much about the functions of an automatic tranny, and probably shouldn't be taking part of this conversation. On the other hand, I do know quite a bit about how they work. I don't, however, know how to "moderate" a forum. So how 'bout this. I'll stick to the mechanic stuff, and you stick to moderating.
The procedures to adjust the bands were written directly from the factory service manual for the car he owns. He has the same transmission I have in my 2000 neon, and both my bands have been adjusted. Only one one of them do you need to pull the pan, but you do NOT need to pull the valve body to adjust either band.
I'm not trying to be a dick here, but I don't think you know much about the functions of an automatic tranny, and probably shouldn't be taking part of this conversation. On the other hand, I do know quite a bit about how they work. I don't, however, know how to "moderate" a forum. So how 'bout this. I'll stick to the mechanic stuff, and you stick to moderating.
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Yes, of course they have bands, moron, and they have to be adjusted. You are aware, aren't you, that this is a 2001 Neon, not a 2012 (which will probably still have bands)? Seriously, who told you they don't have bands and can't be adjusted? I can't believe you'd state something like that. If you don't know something, you should keep your mouth shut.
The procedures to adjust the bands were written directly from the factory service manual for the car he owns. He has the same transmission I have in my 2000 neon, and both my bands have been adjusted. Only one one of them do you need to pull the pan, but you do NOT need to pull the valve body to adjust either band.
I'm not trying to be a dick here, but I don't think you know much about the functions of an automatic tranny, and probably shouldn't be taking part of this conversation. On the other hand, I do know quite a bit about how they work. I don't, however, know how to "moderate" a forum. So how 'bout this. I'll stick to the mechanic stuff, and you stick to moderating.
The procedures to adjust the bands were written directly from the factory service manual for the car he owns. He has the same transmission I have in my 2000 neon, and both my bands have been adjusted. Only one one of them do you need to pull the pan, but you do NOT need to pull the valve body to adjust either band.
I'm not trying to be a dick here, but I don't think you know much about the functions of an automatic tranny, and probably shouldn't be taking part of this conversation. On the other hand, I do know quite a bit about how they work. I don't, however, know how to "moderate" a forum. So how 'bout this. I'll stick to the mechanic stuff, and you stick to moderating.
And no, the electronic transmissions (the ones that are in 2002-2005 non-export Neons) do NOT have adjustable bands regardless of what you seem to think. Have your buddy run that through the "nifty AllData." If he does, Dodge and the rest of the world is wrong. I'm positive he will find no such adjustment for the electronic transmissions. Evidently, you don't know as much as you think you do.Is there a post by the OP I missed that said he for sure had a 3-speed after all, and not the 4-speed? I assumed he had a 3-speed at first as well, but he said differently.
But you're right...what would I know about these transmissions? I've only had to take mine out several times to fix problems with it, along with helping other people here on the forums get theirs fixed.
Quit being an ***.
EDIT: Here's this from someone else in the UK regarding their 2001 Chrysler Neon-
I would really appreciate your good advice concerning a 2001 UK Neon with limp in P1698. Unfortunately export Chrysler Neons received the 4 speed ahead of the domestic Dodge-branded cars [Read: the 41TE that is in the 2003-2005 domestic Neons]
Last edited by darthroush; Nov 16, 2011 at 09:05 AM.
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My view is you came across a little bit forward in your post, I was a bit taken back by it to be honest. While you do give your thoughts like the previous post you dont really offer a solution, where bert has. OK it might have been wrong in heinsight. Can we not all be freinds all I want to do is try and save this car from a future that does not look to rosey right now.
You see Neons here got a massive PR blasting, and people will not buy them which means the bottom has fallen out of the 2nd hand market, and a ton of chrylser dealers went bust. There is now only 1 dealer left in my whole entire country and even he sells 3 other brands of car. Here is the problem, despite the car is in A1 condition done hardly any millage etc etc, its beyond echonomical repair. To spend £100 on parts is almost 20% of what the car is worth. I love the car if I am honest with you, its very very quick and comfortable. But also a huge money pit. To put it into perspective the higher end RT model only sells for £800 with only 40k miles on it. Do the math when a filter and oil change costs over £100 to do even by yourself is it worth it.
All I am looking for is a solution to the problem that does not involve wasteing money on parts that MIGHT fix the issue. I can get another gearbox for £300+vat , but it will cost £400 to get it fitted and even then its not a guranteed unit. Guranteed units are twice the value of the car. So lets kiss and make up and try and solve my issues.
So to recap.
It is a 2001 Gen 2 4 speed automatic according to chrysler in Cardiff. Now I dont know its a 3 speed or 4 speed because those are gears that dont work.
I have tried trans fix
You have all seen the videos, and I have tried to clean up the wires on the sensors speed In and Out.
I can also here the solonoids going drrrr tick when I put it into drive so there is soem life in those.
all I want to do is try and save this car from a future that does not look to rosey right now.You see Neons here got a massive PR blasting, and people will not buy them which means the bottom has fallen out of the 2nd hand market, and a ton of chrylser dealers went bust. There is now only 1 dealer left in my whole entire country and even he sells 3 other brands of car. Here is the problem, despite the car is in A1 condition done hardly any millage etc etc, its beyond echonomical repair. To spend £100 on parts is almost 20% of what the car is worth. I love the car if I am honest with you, its very very quick and comfortable. But also a huge money pit. To put it into perspective the higher end RT model only sells for £800 with only 40k miles on it. Do the math when a filter and oil change costs over £100 to do even by yourself is it worth it.
All I am looking for is a solution to the problem that does not involve wasteing money on parts that MIGHT fix the issue. I can get another gearbox for £300+vat , but it will cost £400 to get it fitted and even then its not a guranteed unit. Guranteed units are twice the value of the car. So lets kiss and make up and try and solve my issues.
So to recap.
It is a 2001 Gen 2 4 speed automatic according to chrysler in Cardiff. Now I dont know its a 3 speed or 4 speed because those are gears that dont work.
I have tried trans fix
You have all seen the videos, and I have tried to clean up the wires on the sensors speed In and Out.
I can also here the solonoids going drrrr tick when I put it into drive so there is soem life in those.
Last edited by mintminty59; Nov 16, 2011 at 01:18 PM.
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Dave, can you get your VIN so we can figure out which tranny you actually have? I don't want to continue down the road of bad advice if you do actually have the 4 speed, rather than the 3 speed. In that, darthroush is 100% correct in that the 4 speed has no bands, and is controlled electronically, and what I've been telling you to do won't work. It may be that you could tell by simply pulling the air box and seeing if there's a band adjustment bolt on the front/top of the transmission, but I'd rather check the VIN to find out for sure, if possible.
darthroush,
I want to say that you're not the petty child that I expected (there are millions of them here on the internet) and apologize for jumping down your throat prematurely. I'm not really a drama-queen (but I'm married to one) or a ********, I just had a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to what I expected you to be. Again, my apologies.
darthroush,
I want to say that you're not the petty child that I expected (there are millions of them here on the internet) and apologize for jumping down your throat prematurely. I'm not really a drama-queen (but I'm married to one) or a ********, I just had a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to what I expected you to be. Again, my apologies.
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Thats much better kiss and make up is always good. I do have the VIN number in front of me here. Reading Wiki the 41TE was fitted to neons in the UK from 2000 so I think having a gen2 neon its a 4 speed box. By 4 speed I am assuming its 4 gears and OD. My Merc had a 4 speed and overdrive.
I do have the VIN if you need it.
I do have the VIN if you need it.
The problem is inside the transmission. The hub and shaft has broken to where it is just spinning. You need to remove and do a tear down and send me a pm with the parts you need and I can give you the Mopar part numbers.
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Thanks, Master Tech.
Dave, I hate to see you scrap that Neon, I really do, but don't blame you if it's not cost effective to keep it.
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure Master Tech knows what he's talking about. As I understand it, he works for Chrysler and is a certified tranny expert, which is why I asked him to come over from where I read some of his posts on the Durango forum and give his input.
I'm sure sorry for the confusion, I kept looking at the 2001 Neon transmissions available and only saw the 3 speed (same as I have) for that year....didn't occur to me that they'd have the electronic tranny there that year.
Dave, I hate to see you scrap that Neon, I really do, but don't blame you if it's not cost effective to keep it.
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure Master Tech knows what he's talking about. As I understand it, he works for Chrysler and is a certified tranny expert, which is why I asked him to come over from where I read some of his posts on the Durango forum and give his input.
I'm sure sorry for the confusion, I kept looking at the 2001 Neon transmissions available and only saw the 3 speed (same as I have) for that year....didn't occur to me that they'd have the electronic tranny there that year.